Canon MP35 - extensions and usable mag range

[Andy Davies]

I'm investigating various extensions and mags for the Canon MP35.

I have a Nikon bellows and the min extension is 126mm from the back flange of the lens to the sensor (I have to use an extension tube to mount the camera on the bellows) which gives me 4.8x.

What extension will give 3x mag? What mag range is the lens usable over?

[ray_parkhurst]

Are you sure you have your extensions measured correctly? From my notes, the effective length of the MP35 is ~12mm, so that would make your total extension ~138mm. This should give ~2.9x magnification, not 4.8x. to get 4.8x, you'd need over 200mm.

[Andy Davies]

My cockup!! I'd left the D810 in DX mode by mistake!!

[RobertOToole]

My cockup!! I'd left the D810 in DX mode by mistake!!

Glad you got that sorted. Nothing is as frustrating as getting sensor sizes mixed up, I shoot with different formats and this happens all the time

BTW, don't bother testing the MP35 stacked, I did that years ago and forgot the results, I know they were bad but I wasn't sure why, so I re-tested last night at about 3x. The center is okay, but the corners are soft, not due to curvature, looks like spherical aberration.

Best,

Robert

[ray_parkhurst]

My cockup!! I'd left the D810 in DX mode by mistake!!

Glad you got that sorted. Nothing is as frustrating as getting sensor sizes mixed up, I shoot with different formats and this happens all the time

BTW, don't bother testing the MP35 stacked, I did that years ago and forgot the results, I know they were bad but I wasn't sure why, so I re-tested last night at about 3x. The center is okay, but the corners are soft, not due to curvature, looks like spherical aberration.

Best,

Robert

For the last decade or more, the 35MP has been the go-to lens for highest quality at ~2-3x. Only recently have some combos and lenses surpassed it. Indeed even in my tests at 2.4x, the 35MP won over the 95PN, which is my go-to lens at 2x. The 95PN degrades enough at 2.4x that the 35MP won in my tests. So while I commend the work toward ultimate performance, I still think the 35MP has its place among the best lenses around 2-3x.

[RobertOToole]

My cockup!! I'd left the D810 in DX mode by mistake!!

Glad you got that sorted. Nothing is as frustrating as getting sensor sizes mixed up, I shoot with different formats and this happens all the time

BTW, don't bother testing the MP35 stacked, I did that years ago and forgot the results, I know they were bad but I wasn't sure why, so I re-tested last night at about 3x. The center is okay, but the corners are soft, not due to curvature, looks like spherical aberration.

Best,

Robert

For the last decade or more, the 35MP has been the go-to lens for highest quality at ~2-3x. Only recently have some combos and lenses surpassed it. Indeed even in my tests at 2.4x, the 35MP won over the 95PN, which is my go-to lens at 2x. The 95PN degrades enough at 2.4x that the 35MP won in my tests. So while I commend the work toward ultimate performance, I still think the 35MP has its place among the best lenses around 2-3x.

The MP35 beats most lenses that I have tried on extension from 2-3x. In 2015 or so I assembled a group of lenses that I had heard and read so much about, the SK 4/28 and other enlarger lenses. The MP35 was used as my reference lens. The test was a complete waste of time. The MP35 beat everything with very solid sharpness in the corners, nothing could touch it. I sold all the lenses and kept the MP35.

The comment I made above was with the MP35 in a stacked setup on a 90mm line scan lens, not on extension.

From experience with stacking combos seems that the higher performance the lenses are, the less chance they will be perform in a stack it seems. The MacroVaron, MP35, Minolta 5400, Scanner Nikkon ED, all are terrible in a stack but some okay lenses like the Componons, are superb performers when stacked.

100% view center crop.

Componon 4/35 wide open at f/2.5 ( aperture stop removed ) and 2.5x. Stacked on a Mejiro 5.6/90 scan lens.

[chris_ma]

speaking of which: I'm looking for a lens that performs excellent at 0.4x magnification (ie 1:2.5) with flat field and coverage for an FX sensor..

sounds like the MP35 reversed might be an option, no?
but then again it looks rather complicated to mount it reversed :/

and a question for Robert:
I'm also looking for a solution for 2.6x (again flat field for FF). those staked tests look fantastic, but the Mejiro 5.6/90 seems to be rare.
Would the SK Componon 28 or 35 stacked on a SK Makro-Symmar 120 also cover FF?
or should I simply try the Canon MP35 at this magnification since the difference only gets visible at higher mags?

many thanks
chris

[RobertOToole]

speaking of which: I'm looking for a lens that performs excellent at 0.4x magnification (ie 1:2.5) with flat field and coverage for an FX sensor..

sounds like the MP35 reversed might be an option, no?
but then again it looks rather complicated to mount it reversed :/

Not sure, I've never thought or reversing an MP-35.

Mounting a lens like that would be easy but you would need to remove the f-stop lever.

Once you get that off: RMS > M52 or RMS > M42 then M42 > SM2, this would mount inside a SM2 threaded extension tube backwards.

The strength of a bellows lens would be corner performance on a FF sensor.

and a question for Robert:
I'm also looking for a solution for 2.6x (again flat field for FF). those staked tests look fantastic, but the Mejiro 5.6/90 seems to be rare.

Yes, right, Meijiro lenses are not exactly easy to find.

New or used, and budget?

If you had big budget, one of the float lenses, the Mejiro f2.5 1-3x or the Linos 1-3x would be superb.

http://cgi3.genossen.co.jp/en/float-l-high/

https://www.qioptiq-shop.com/en/Precisi ... float.html

Looking at some of my tests for reference:

https://www.closeuphotography.com/2x-lens-test-2018
https://www.closeuphotography.com/3x-lens-test
https://www.closeuphotography.com/2x-lens-test

For something cheaper, there is always the MP-E 65, it covers FF for sure but there are more CAs than I would like to see.

To cover 2.6x with something that would cost less than the MP-E? The best lenses in my test have now become more expensive like the Minolta 5400.

There is a Rodenstock 4/40 WA lens on eBay now for $50 (the seller raised his price recently). I ran a quick test and stacked the performance is very good. Stacked on a 100mm lens would put the range you need. Mounting might be a little tricky.

The MP-35 would be a good bet for 2.6x, there is one on eBay more for $200 or so.

The Tominon 35 can be great in this range but the IQ variation between lenses is higher than usual.

Would the SK Componon 28 or 35 stacked on a SK Makro-Symmar 120 also cover FF?
or should I simply try the Canon MP35 at this magnification since the difference only gets visible at higher mags?

You know, I've never tried the CNP 28 or 35 stacked on a FF camera. The quality is great to the edges on APS-C so it would be interesting to see but coverage is a big question. The Lomo 3.7 is pushable down to 3x even stacked where is performs even better but the field is curved quite a bit but the center is just beautiful, CA control is excellent.

If you can go with 3x, the Lomo 3,7 pushed down would be hard to beat for the price if you don't mind stacking the corners.

https://www.closeuphotography.com/lomo-3-7x-and-sr120/

Hope this info helps.

Best,

Robert

[ray_parkhurst]

I don't think the 35MP would work well reversed due to limited coverage. It has a reasonable image circle mounted forward, but the conjugate situation would have a very tiny image circle I think.

Edited to add: Most any standard macro lens will do well on FF in the m=0.4x range

[chris_ma]

Yes, right, Meijiro lenses are not exactly easy to find. or used, and budget?

I'm happy to buy used since reselling hurts less if I made the wrong decisions

In the end I'll probably need 3 or 4 different magnifications (scanning different film formats). like:

0.4x
1x
1.4x
2.6x

total budget is about 2000EUR give or take.

I have access to a Linos 105/5.6 1x and 0.5x, plus a Minolta 5400.
also might be able to get my hands on a Rayfact VL 1.4x.

I tested the Rodagon-D 75mm 1x and 2x and was not quite convinced.

I was thinking of simply getting a SK Macro Varon but then again it might be a few months/years until one turns up at reasonable price, plus I'd still be out of range for the 2.6x

If you had big budget, one of the float lenses, the Mejiro f2.5 1-3x or the Linos 1-3x would be superb.

I think those are more in the 5000EUR range no?

Looking at some of my tests for reference:
https://www.closeuphotography.com/2x-lens-test-2018
https://www.closeuphotography.com/3x-lens-test
https://www.closeuphotography.com/2x-lens-test

Jup, studied your page for many hours, and let me use the opportunity to say a big thank you for all the information and the superb documentation and presentation. It's pages like this which make the internet feel like it used to before it got dominated by large commercial companies.

For something cheaper, there is always the MP-E 65, it covers FF for sure but there are more CAs than I would like to see.

not a big fan of the CA either.

To cover 2.6x with something that would cost less than the MP-E? The best lenses in my test have now become more expensive like the Minolta 5400.

ah, I have access to a M5400, but from my quick initial tests it looked that it was very poor in the corners on FF. could have been that I tested it on 1:1 though, so will retest at 2.6x

There is a Rodenstock 4/40 WA lens on eBay now for $50 (the seller raised his price recently). I ran a quick test and stacked the performance is very good. Stacked on a 100mm lens would put the range you need. Mounting might be a little tricky.
The MP-35 would be a good bet for 2.6x, there is one on eBay more for $200 or so.
The Tominon 35 can be great in this range but the IQ variation between lenses is higher than usual.

sounds good, most of them are affordable enough so that I can give it a try.

Would the SK Componon 28 or 35 stacked on a SK Makro-Symmar 120 also cover FF?
or should I simply try the Canon MP35 at this magnification since the difference only gets visible at higher mags?

You know, I've never tried the CNP 28 or 35 stacked on a FF camera. The quality is great to the edges on APS-C so it would be interesting to see but coverage is a big question.

I was thinking about your test on the Comp 28mm stacked on the Mejiro 90 covers the D850 at 3.2x:
https://www.closeuphotography.com/schne ... ponon-lens
so I was thinking maybe it also works stacked on a SK M-S 120 at 2.6x.
but I might have to get a Makro-Symmar anyway for stacking test since your results look just fantastic on corner coverage.

The Lomo 3.7 is pushable down to 3x even stacked where is performs even better but the field is curved quite a bit but the center is just beautiful, CA control is excellent.
If you can go with 3x, the Lomo 3,7 pushed down would be hard to beat for the price if you don't mind stacking the corners.

That's an interesting option since I might have to stack anyway at 2.6x because of film flatness.

Thanks a lot for all the thoughts, I should have my mounting system ready in a couple of weeks and then I can start with testing myself instead of only asking.

chris

[chris_ma]

I don't think the 35MP would work well reversed due to limited coverage. It has a reasonable image circle mounted forward, but the conjugate situation would have a very tiny image circle I think.

ah, very good point.
I forgot that the coverage reverses as well when reversing a lens.

Edited to add: Most any standard macro lens will do well on FF in the m=0.4x range

also a very good point. I'll probably pick up a Nikkor 55mm 2.8 then and run some tests. Might also be able to borrow a Zeiss Contax 60mm and 100mm Macro.

Thanks a lot
chris

[chris_ma]

PS: found a page with datasheets for the Mejiro lenses here:
http://www.visioneyes.co.kr/main/sub.ht ... =33&page=1

They not only include MTF curves and distortion, but also rather nice lens group and light path diagrams and info about field curvature.
Kind of strange that they are labeled "confidential", maybe they were meant for internal use only?

[RobertOToole]

a very good point. I'll probably pick up a Nikkor 55mm 2.8 then and run some tests. Might also be able to borrow a Zeiss Contax 60mm and 100mm Macro.

Thanks a lot
chris

Save money and get a Sigma 2.8/50. The Nikkor 55 has a nice center performance but the corners are not as good as the Sigma.

Check Mark's site: http://coinimaging.com/lens_compare.html?

This doesn't make too much sense but I am just reporting what I see:

1x Overall Ranking hall of fame
Rank Lens Score
1 Nikon Printing-Nikkor 150/2.8 1.3
2 Nikon Printing-Nikkor 150/2.8 New 2.7
3 Schneider 45mm f/4 APO 3.7
4 Sigma 50mm f/2.8 DG macro 4.7
5 Nikon Printing-Nikkor 105mm f/2.8A 5.3
6 Nikon Printing-Nikkor 105mm f/2.8 6.0

I don't think it makes much sense since I've owned something like 4 copies of the 4/45 APO CNP and the corners are bad on every single one (and NON-APO CAs). This is an issue with imatest having more bias towards the center.

[RobertOToole]

PS: found a page with datasheets for the Mejiro lenses here:
http://www.visioneyes.co.kr/main/sub.ht ... =33&page=1

They not only include MTF curves and distortion, but also rather nice lens group and light path diagrams and info about field curvature.
Kind of strange that they are labeled "confidential", maybe they were meant for internal use only?

Thanks for that Chris!

I've been to that site and missed those somehow!

Great find, at least for me

Best,

Robert

[dickb]

sounds like the MP35 reversed might be an option, no?
but then again it looks rather complicated to mount it reversed :/

Well, the conical front bevel of the lens can be unscrewed, revealing two fine threads. This was intended for use with the Canon 16mm and 8 mm film copying adapter. The front thread is something like 22mm x0.75, my S-Planar 32/4 adapter is 22x0.5 and the speed doesn't exactly match. The larger front thread is 31mm or 32mm x0.75. My Novoflex LEIEL adapter is just a little too wide, but a bit of PTFE tape cures that Anyway, this thread may be an easy way to mount the lens reversed without removing the aperture stalk.