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marking meanings (Leitz PL FLUOTAR 40/0.70 *160/0.17)
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henryr



Joined: 31 Aug 2015
Posts: 72
Location: Connecticut

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:44 pm    Post subject: marking meanings (Leitz PL FLUOTAR 40/0.70 *160/0.17) Reply with quote

I just got a Leitz Wetzlar objective with the following markings: 518036 PL FLUOTAR 40/0.70 *160/0.17. My questions are, what does the * mean in the marking *160/0.17 and, what does the PL mean?

Thanks,
henryr
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bernhardinho



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 563
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Henryr

the "PL" is easy-it means "plan"= "flat"

the image is flattend up to a 28mm field

The * has been discussed in our german forum. The most likely explanation is:
Leitz changed tubelength from 170mm to 160mm in the 80´s. In that time they marked their objectives that could be used on old 170mm stands as well.

You´ve got an excellent objective there!!

Best regards

Bernhard
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Ichthyophthirius



Joined: 07 Mar 2013
Posts: 993

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

PL (which for Leitz is different from "Pl" and "Plan") means a plan objective. PL achromats and PL APO objectives are flat up to field number 28, PL FLUOTAR up to 25.

The *star, we simply don't know. No-one has found a reference in the literature yet. It's not connected to suitability for 170 mm tube length. There are a few objectibes marked "*170/" , so that wouldn't make sense. There are also the PL FLUOTAR 6.3/0.20 *160/- which is clearly not suitable for 170 mm because it isn't parfocal any more.

The *star appears (exclusively???) on brightfield objectives, not Phaco, although the Phacos can be used on 170 mm stands.

The *star appears in the 1980s, often on the newer objectives PL FLUOTAR (not as often on the older NPL FLUOTAR, except for NPL FLUOTAR Fluoreszenz, which are also 1980s objectives. These objectives were coming out together with the newer stands Diaplan and Aristoplan so there is the suggestion that the *star is connected to the new interference contrast systems (Labovert, Aristoplan) which had the DIC prisms mounted outside the objective. But as I said, there is no prove for this yet. The *star is also found on infinity-corrected metallurgical objectives from the same time period http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mrFLTNCTpQVV_7RAoYPj0Bg.jpg . However, the NPL FlUOTAR L25/0.35 is clearly intended for interference contrast (Labovert system) but it doesn't have a *star. So no-one knows Sad
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Pau
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Joined: 20 Jan 2010
Posts: 5030
Location: Valencia, Spain

PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked about the "*" meaning some time ago and I only got a not referenced answer about "strain free" (but strain free pol objectives are usually marked with red letters)

I only have one * marked objective, the Pl Fluotar 10/0.30 and it works nicely for DIC while my NPL Fluotar 10/30 is unable to deliver DIC but it works fine for pol, so maybe the * symbol could mean for DIC, I think that Ichthy may be right.

Some related notes:
- I can get DIC with other NPL Fluotar objectives but not at the right Köhler position
- My only other Pl Fluotar, a Phase 3 100X is unable to do DIC and it isn't marked *
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bernhardinho



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 563
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All right folks

I finally found the answer in our forum, sorry for my earlier posting.

A friend of mine used to be very much associated with Leitz, he published in the so called " Mitteilungen für Wissenschaft und Technik" ( Bulletins for science and technology) by Leitz. From his archives of these bulletins he wrote in a discussion about the * on Leitz objectives:

http://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index.php?topic=13968.0;wap2

Quote:

Lt den mir vorliegenden Leitz Mitteilungen fuer Wissenschaft und Technik bedeuted das * eine "definierte" und damit zwischen allen Objektiven mit dem * genau abgestimmte Lage der hinteren Objektivbrennebene, sodass diese alle mit den dafuer vorgesehenen Nomarski-Prismen fuer DIC eingesetzt werden können (da das Nomarski-Typ Wollaston Prisma die hintere Objektive-Brennebene genau an einem definierten Punkt erwartet um richtig zu funktionieren).

Herzliche Gruesse
Holger



I try to translate as accurately as possible:

" According to the Leitz bulletins for science and technology that I have access to, the * means a "defined" and thus between all objectivs with * attuned position of the back focal plane, making sure that these can all be used with the appropriate Nomarski prisms for DIC (because the Nomarski type Wollaston prisms require the back focal plane of the objective at a well defined point to function as they should)

Kind regards
Holger"


I know Holger personally and he usually knows what he is talking about, being a bit of a Leitz nerd Wink

This would explain Pau`s expierences as well!


Regards from Germany

Bernhard
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Pau
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Joined: 20 Jan 2010
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Location: Valencia, Spain

PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bernhard, many thanks for posting this.

The * mark has been an usolved mystery for several years, at least in the small Leitz community at this forum.

- henryr, do you give me your permision to alter the thread title to include the Leitz term to facilitate future searches now that the * mystery seems solved?
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Last edited by Pau on Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ichthyophthirius



Joined: 07 Mar 2013
Posts: 993

PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I have contacted him several times about this and he still hasn't found a reference for this. So this should read "According to the Leitz bulletins for science and technology that I can't find".

I also went through all of the issues of "Leitz Mitteilungen fuer Wissenschaft und Technik" at a University library (might have been an incomplete set) and there is no information about this anywhere.

It sounds logical and might even be true, but we don't know. The mystery remains unsolved.

Also, the aforementioned PL FLUOTAR 6.3/0.20 *160/- ; there isn't a condenser ICT prism for it, is there? Not for the Aristoplan (not in the manual), maybe for the Labovert (don't know).
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Pau
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ichthy, I've edited my last post according

Quote:
Also, the aforementioned PL FLUOTAR 6.3/0.20 *160/- ; there isn't a condenser ICT prism for it, is there? Not for the Aristoplan (not in the manual), maybe for the Labovert (don't know).

Some DIC systems use the same condenser prism for several objectives, could it be the case?.
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Choronzon



Joined: 21 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can say with some degree of certainty, that the asterisk before the 160 TL designation on Leitz lenses of this period, probably does indicate that they will work with the Smith DIC system of the Aristoplan.
I have tried the following objectives on my Aristoplan with DIC, all marked with the asterisk, and they work exceptionally well.
NPL Fluotar 10X 0.45 Fluoreszenz oil
NPL Fluotar 25X 0.75 Fluoreszenz oil
NPL Fluotar 40X 1.3 Fluoreszenz oil
PL Fluotar 25X
PL Fluotar 50X 1.0 Fluoreszenz oil
PL Apo 63X 1.4 oil
PL Apo 100X 1.32-0.60 oil
PL Fluotar 100X 1.32 Pol
Having DIC prisms separate from the objectives on a Smith DIC system is a huge advantage, allowing mixing and matching objectives. Some, for example, the 63 X, use the 100X condenser prism, but the 40X nosepiece prism. So maybe that PL Fluotar 6.3 will really work with the 10X prisms.
Also interesting is that the PL Fluotar 100X is marked with both the asterisk, and the P designation.
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Ichthyophthirius



Joined: 07 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Choronzon wrote:

NPL Fluotar 10X 0.45 Fluoreszenz oil
NPL Fluotar 25X 0.75 Fluoreszenz oil
NPL Fluotar 40X 1.3 Fluoreszenz oil
PL Fluotar 25X
PL Fluotar 50X 1.0 Fluoreszenz oil
PL Apo 63X 1.4 oil
PL Apo 100X 1.32-0.60 oil
PL Fluotar 100X 1.32 Pol


That's very interesting! Very good to know, I don't think I've read about such a test anywhere else before. It strengthens the case for the *star interpretation.

Out of interest: Can you get DIC with your system and the NPL FLUOTAR 100/1.32? Both Pau and I don't seem to get that one to work.

Regards,

Ichty
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Choronzon



Joined: 21 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy,
I don't have a NPL 100x to test, only the one with prism already in it for the Orthoplan DIC. I couldn't get a Leitz Plan Apo 40 X to work; I'll try some other 160 TL objectives when I get back from NY this weekend
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Ichthyophthirius



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Choronzon wrote:
Itchy,
I'll try some other 160 TL objectives when I get back from NY this weekend


I'd be massively interested in your results!
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henryr



Joined: 31 Aug 2015
Posts: 72
Location: Connecticut

PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:58 pm    Post subject: * mark question Reply with quote

Pau wrote:
Bernhard, many thanks for posting this.

The * mark has been an usolved mystery for several years, at least in the small Leitz community at this forum.

- henryr, do you give me your permision to alter the thread title to include the Leitz term to facilitate future searches now that the * mystery seems solved?


Yes. This is a great site and the amount of knowledge is amazing. I'm a total newbie and am surprised and pleased with all the activity my question caused. I hope, one day, I will be able to answer someone's question.
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Choronzon



Joined: 21 Feb 2010
Posts: 384
Location: Chicago USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I have finished testing various objectives on my Aristoplan DIC microscope and have come to the following conclusions. The * marking on any Leitz 160mm tube length objective will allow it to be used on this system; in fact, I am of the opinion that this * designation, applies to the Aristoplan and Aristomet microscopes only, with the possible exception of the Diaplan DIC, which is so rare, that nobody I know has ever seen one.
So here is the lineup of Leitz objectives I own with * that I found will work.
10X Plan*
10X NPL Fluotar Fluoreszenz Oil*
16X Pl Fluotar*
25X Pl Fluotar*
25X NPL Fluotar Fluoreszenz Oil*
40X NPL Fluotar Fluoreszenz Oil*
50X Pl Fluotar Oil*
60X Plan Apo Oil*
100X PL Fluotar Oil*
100X Plan Apo Oil w/iris*

I'm missing the 40X Pl Fluotar*, but I'm sure it will also work.
In addition, I was able to get the Zeiss 25X plan apo to work, as well as the Zeiss 40X Plan Neofluar. However the 25x is severely separated, and the 40X is the phase version. Still I the images were acceptable, and I think would be ok wer it not for these issues. I'm curious to see what other optics would work, but I don't have a lot of others to test. None of the Leitz 170 TL seem to work, and of the Leitz 160, if it soesn't have the *, it will not work at all.
All in all, this is a very usefull widefield DIC system, able to use a great range of objectives. I wish I had the 6.3X Pl Fluotar*
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Perl



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
For your Info !

You can use other Leitz Microscope than Aristoplan / Diaplan
with only one DIC Prisma (like the Reichert Zetopan DIC ) if its
adjustable and in Turret Pol Slot - in that way you dont need the
ICT Objectives

Regards
Pär Lundqvist
Sweden
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