Macro Equipment Question

[scitch]

I have a grant that is ending and might have about $500 to spend. I am interested in macro photography of insects (compound eyes particularly).

What would you get if you were me? Infinity objective to mount on camera lens? Better macro lens? High quality objective to go on a bellows? Other?

Here's what I presently have:

Konus Crystal-45 stereo scope
Laborlux K compound scope
Sony Alpha-200 camera
Tamron 90 mm macro lens
Raynox 250
Cheap Ebay bellows
Reversing ring
Hot-shoe flash and external cable
An assortment of med-quality Chinese objectives
Kenko extension tubes

It'll have to be ordered from a company like B & H or Edmund with a purchase order, so ebay is not an option.

So, follow-up question also would be, who would you order it from and exactly which model (i.e. Nikon CFI 4X LU Plan)?

Thanks!
Mike

[Chris S.]

Mike, a couple of observations, though not an answer:

First, the Tamron 90mm macro that you have is probably pretty good optically--a lot of us think that most major-brand macro primes in that range are solid performers at realistic apertures, though bokeh differs.

Second, could you name some specific things you want to do photographically, but can't with your current equipment? Given your interest in insects and particularly compound eyes, what images or features have you wanted to capture, but couldn't because your equipment limited you?

Cheers,

--Chris

[AndrewC]

I'd go with the Edmunds 10x PLAN lens (and maybe 4x and 40x if you wanted to use up the budget)

http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatal ... uctid=2943

An RMS to T mount cone (you might need to visit eBay for that), and some T-mount extension tubes and adapter rings you could order from SRB-Griturn (they might even have an RMS to T-mount adapter ?).

http://www.srb-griturn.com/index.asp

The other question is how you plan to move subject (or camera). Best commercial off the shelf item might be a StackShot. If you don't already have a "mover" I would buy a StackShot, the Edmunds 10x and hunt the other stuff up on eBay.

http://www.cognisys-inc.com/catalog/ind ... 96f73d8729

[NikonUser]

You can also get an objective mount from Edmund
search for NT52-301

[AndrewC]

... and even the T-mount extension tubes

[scitch]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

Good question, Chris. I guess I'm looking for more sharpness. I still haven't gotten a crisp image at a decent magnification. I've tried just about every technique there is to see which one I like the best and realized that the answer should be, "the one that produces the best results.". So, I guess that should have been the precursor to my original question, "What technique is best for insect macro? And what additional equipment would I need in order to do it?"

Andrew, I have a t-moutn to sony alpha adapter and sony alpha extension rings. So, if I were to go that way, would I just need the rms-to-t cone?

Also, I have some chinese plan objectives, so if I were going to get an objective, I'd want it to be a good step up in quality and in the 4X to 10X range. Unfortunately, I don't have the experience to tell which are high quality and which are not. Is that Edmunds plan objective a big step up in quality?

Thanks again,

Mike

[AndrewC]

T....

Andrew, I have a t-moutn to sony alpha adapter and sony alpha extension rings. So, if I were to go that way, would I just need the rms-to-t cone?

Also, I have some chinese plan objectives, so if I were going to get an objective, I'd want it to be a good step up in quality and in the 4X to 10X range. Unfortunately, I don't have the experience to tell which are high quality and which are not. Is that Edmunds plan objective a big step up in quality?

Thanks again,

Mike

Tubes and cone - so long as you add up to a total tube length (shoulder on objective thread to sensor plane) appropriate for your objective. Typically 160mm or 210mm.

Objective quality - the Edmunds Nikon objectives are high quality. no idea if they are better than your Chinese ones because I've no idea what they are ! http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... nikon+plan

[scitch]

Andrew;

I'm sure the Nikons would be better than my chinese objectives. They're about equal in quality to the objectives in a high school teacher's microscope. But there are so many different objectives and features, I wouldn't know which one to get.

I had no idea that a stackshot could be purchased for less that $500! Besides the $475 kit, what else would be required to get a setup going?

Mike

[AndrewC]

Andrew;

I'm sure the Nikons would be better than my chinese objectives. They're about equal in quality to the objectives in a high school teacher's microscope. But there are so many different objectives and features, I wouldn't know which one to get.

I had no idea that a stackshot could be purchased for less that $500! Besides the $475 kit, what else would be required to get a setup going?

Mike

Like I said - if you need to buy new go for the Edmunds listing. To get going with a StackShot, look at some of the threads in this forum. At it's simplest probably just a plank of wood to screw it to, and then a something to hold the subject - pin stuck in a lump of plasticene. After that you can get into the pleasures of move subject vs move camera, lighting, and more

[Chris S.]

. . .I still haven't gotten a crisp image at a decent magnification. I've tried just about every technique there is. . .

Mike, this strikes me as a really important statement. What, if I may ask, do you consider "decent magnification"--not trying to interrogate you, but understand your needs. Your Tamron 90mm should be just fine down to 1/2x or 1x without any help (not sure what its limit is without additional extension)--if you are not getting sharp images with it in this range, either your lens is defective (unlikely) or we should be looking at your technique (no offense meant--just that macro technique is unforgiving, and most of us, myself included, have learned some things the hard way). Additionally, I'd expect your Tamron to do pretty well reversed up to about 2X. But I haven't tried it, so can't be sure.

Lots of insect photography happens in those ranges, but if you're already doing well at those magnifications, but are having trouble, say, between 5x-10x, it's a different conversation.

I could see you reasonably opting to spend your remaining grant on optics, lighting, camera support, a body with mirror-up shooting, a StackShot, or other things. (The StackShot, by the way, is a wonderful piece of kit and very fairly priced--but I don't know enough about what you are doing to know if it would help you right now.)

So, some more questions:

At what subject magnification do the sharpness problems begin to appear (I assume you're able to render large objects clearly, so as you go closer, when do things start to fall apart?)

What subject magnification range is most important to you? (For example: Shooting an entire, large, dragonfly? The eyes of a large dragonfly? A single eye of a small midge?)

I'm guessing you've tried both available light and flash approaches--in the flash approaches, was any portion of your image sharp? Is your frustration that no part of the image is sharp, or that there is an area of sharpness, but it does not extend to your entire subject?

Are you primarily interested in photographing in the field, the studio, or both?

What camera body are you using?

Cheers,

--Chris

[rjlittlefield]

I'd go with the Edmunds 10x PLAN lens (and maybe 4x and 40x if you wanted to use up the budget)

http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatal ... uctid=2943

The 10X at this link is excellent. It's not actually plan (I suspect a glitch in Andrew's typing), but plan doesn't matter if you're stacking. I have tested the 10X and found that it produces very good images corner to corner even when pushed down to 7X. See HERE for a detailed test report.

The 40X is cursed by very short working distance -- only 0.60 mm. This lens would be OK for transparent specimens lit from behind, but you cannot illuminate from the front with it.

The 4X has adequate working distance but I cannot vouch for its quality. Based on similar lenses, I would expect it to be somewhat better than your Tamron, but not strikingly so.

If your remaining project budget will cover the StackShot, I would recommend going for that, even if it means getting no more lenses. Lenses are cheap enough to be bought later out of smaller budgets like your own wallet if necessary.

When you order the StackShot, be sure to talk with Cognisys first and get the USB version. That way you'll be covered later when they release the firmware upgrade that can be driven by Zerene Stacker.

If your ZS license is already Professional, then the ZS upgrade that covers StackShot will be free.

--Rik

[AndrewC]

... It's not actually plan (I suspect a glitch in Andrew's typing), ...

Not a glitch , just a multitasking computational error

[scitch]

Sorry in advance, I didn't know how to use the "quote" feature and I messed it all up. My comments are interspersed, but you can't tell them apart from your quotes. So, I'll put "--" before all of my comments.

. . .I still haven't gotten a crisp image at a decent magnification. I've tried just about every technique there is. . .

Mike, this strikes me as a really important statement. What, if I may ask, do you consider "decent magnification"--not trying to interrogate you, but understand your needs. Your Tamron 90mm should be just fine down to 1/2x or 1x without any help (not sure what its limit is without additional extension)--if you are not getting sharp images with it in this range, either your lens is defective (unlikely) or we should be looking at your technique (no offense meant--just that macro technique is unforgiving, and most of us, myself included, have learned some things the hard way). Additionally, I'd expect your Tamron to do pretty well reversed up to about 2X. But I haven't tried it, so can't be sure.

--I haven't reversed the Tamron because it's different filter size than the rest of my lenses, so I need a different reversing ring for that one. I guess what I'm missing is the following: I see people post photos on here that look good of say, a dragonfly's head. Then, they crop down to just a portion of the eye and it still looks good. Mine doesn't do that. With some photoshop sharpening, I can get an image to look ok full size, but when I zoom in or crop with photoshop, it all falls apart. An example is Tomatito's photo of the month. His crops have more sharpness than my uncropped pictures. Here's an example of a handheld single shot that I did with the Sony Alpha 200 and the Tamron 90 mm: http://www.flickr.com/photos/54072193@N03/5148041550. Not bad, but certainly not the same quality as some of the MPE-65 images on the forum. Here is probably one of the best I've done with stacking using the Tamron with extension tubes. It is sharpened in PS and again, falls apart upon cropping, http://flickr.com/photos/54072193@N03/5019910046. The one after that was taken of the same subject but without the extension tubes and there's not much sharpness.
Don't worry, I know that my technique needs some work too. I just want to make sure that I'm not practicing for a drag race in a Hyundai.

Lots of insect photography happens in those ranges, but if you're already doing well at those magnifications, but are having trouble, say, between 5x-10x, it's a different conversation.

--The Tamron does achieve 1:1, but I'd like to go a little higher than that. 4X to 8X is pretty reasonable for me.

I could see you reasonably opting to spend your remaining grant on optics, lighting, camera support, a body with mirror-up shooting, a StackShot, or other things. (The StackShot, by the way, is a wonderful piece of kit and very fairly priced--but I don't know enough about what you are doing to know if it would help you right now.)

So, some more questions:

At what subject magnification do the sharpness problems begin to appear (I assume you're able to render large objects clearly, so as you go closer, when do things start to fall apart?)

--That's a complicated question because I've tried so many techniques. Some of them failed completely. Others were ok. Best so far seems to be microscope objective on an adapter and macro with extension rings.

What subject magnification range is most important to you? (For example: Shooting an entire, large, dragonfly? The eyes of a large dragonfly? A single eye of a small midge?)

--The eye of a large dragonfly with the facets in sharp focus.

I'm guessing you've tried both available light and flash approaches--in the flash approaches, was any portion of your image sharp? Is your frustration that no part of the image is sharp, or that there is an area of sharpness, but it does not extend to your entire subject?

--When stacking, the edge-to-edge sharpness is about the same. It's just not as good as I'd like it to be anywhere, particularly upon cropping or zooming in PS. I have tried both constant artificial light and flash in the studio and available light and flash in the field. Once I learned how to reduce vibration, I got better, but I still have room for improvement.

Are you primarily interested in photographing in the field, the studio, or both?

-- I have fun in the field with the macro lens, but I'm really looking at equipment for in the studio.

What camera body are you using?

-- Sony A200, 10.2 MP APS Sensor.

Cheers,

--Chris

What I was asking with the StackShot is that there are a lot of accessories, cables, stepper motors, etc. Are those required for a basic setup or is that $475 kit everything that most people would need?

If I were going to buy the StackShot kit and an objective on ebay, what would be a good one for this purpose in about the same price range (4X/$50)? There are so many of them on there and I cannot tell the difference. I couldn't find that Nikon 4X achromatic from the Edmund site on ebay.

Mike

[rjlittlefield]

What I was asking with the StackShot is that there are a lot of accessories, cables, stepper motors, etc. Are those required for a basic setup or is that $475 kit everything that most people would need?

The kit plus a shutter cable is everything most people would need.

--Rik

[Chris S.]

Was just writing that--Rik beat me to it.

I believe the shutter cable for the Sony A200 is this one:
http://www.cognisys-inc.com/catalog/pro ... 3d17fa3fee

By the way, the extra stepper motors are for people like me with homebrew rigs who wish to automate them.

--Chris