CANON EOS M6 Mark II

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Macrero
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Post by Macrero »

Adalbert wrote:Hello Macrero, hello Ray,
Could you please show me any test of the cameras with and without the aa-filter with the conclusion that the lack of the aa-filter improves the resolution significantly?
Unfortunately I haven’t found any such test up to now. Mostly the difference can be ignored e.g. NIKON D800 vs. D800E.
BR, ADi
Adi,

I have not made a direct comparison. For a such, one should compare the same camera with and without the filter. I haven't modded any camera yet.

But I have used quite a few cameras with and without AA filter and the difference is clear.

Hopefully Ray could make the comparison with the T2i, that would be very interesting.

For me, the RAWs from an AA-less sensor are easier to work with, they need less sharpening, and hence there is less risk of sharpening artifacts and increasing noise.

Btw, the D800E is not a proper AA-less camera. It still include a low-pass filter, but its effects are cancelled out by a second low-pass filter layer that reverses the effect.

Image

Best,

- Macrero
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

Macrero wrote:
Adalbert wrote:Hopefully Ray could make the comparison with the T2i, that would be very interesting.
I have a T2i on the way.

Macrero
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Post by Macrero »

ray_parkhurst wrote:I have a T2i on the way.
Great! Looking forward to your comparison. I have never seen a properly made (and trustworthy) one.
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

pierre
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CANON EOS M6 Mark II

Post by pierre »

Dear Macrero,


I was hoping the AA filter to be less limitative.

Many thanks for your test !

X-T3 seems to be a nice candidate.
I look forward reading your tests :)
Regards

Pierre

Macrero
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Post by Macrero »

Pierre,

it depends, I guess. The AA filter certainly affects resolution/sharpness.
But it helps preventing occasional aliasing and false colors. Many people, including macro photographers, (there are people on this site who work with Canon cameras), are ok with the resolution penalty.

X-Trans sensor lacks AA filter and given its peculiar filter array it is less susceptible to aliasing and false colors. It has other cons and peculiarities though, no camera/sensor are perfect...

I'll share my thoughts when I get and try the camera.

Best,

- Macrero
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

Macrero wrote: Adi,

I have not made a direct comparison. For a such, one should compare the same camera with and without the filter. I haven't modded any camera yet.

But I have used quite a few cameras with and without AA filter and the difference is clear.

Hopefully Ray could make the comparison with the T2i, that would be very interesting.

For me, the RAWs from an AA-less sensor are easier to work with, they need less sharpening, and hence there is less risk of sharpening artifacts and increasing noise.

Btw, the D800E is not a proper AA-less camera. It still include a low-pass filter, but its effects are cancelled out by a second low-pass filter layer that reverses the effect.

Image

Best,

- Macrero
I can confirm this is accurate Macrero. I have a D800E sensor mounted on the circuit board sitting on my desk with the full filter pack sitting on the sensor. It mounts on the sensor with a silicon gasket with some air space in between. Anyway there's quite a bit of glass in front of the sensor on the D800E. A design without any cover glass at all would cause lens performance issues.

Sony Alpha cameras with an ultra thin cover glass conversion from Kolarivsion look interesting. The downside to this type of modification is that the E-mount native lenses will have some issues but lenses designed to work with film will perform better, especially in the corners.

Just FYI, the Sony Alpha cameras have at least 3mm of glass in front of the sensor. The D850 is something like 2.5mm. The new Nikon Z series glass thickness is just over 1mm.

https://kolarivision.com/product/sony-a ... s-upgrade/

Image

Best,

Robert

Macrero
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Post by Macrero »

Interesting, thanks for the info, Robert. In my experience with Sony APS-C cameras, their AA filter is pretty weak. I've even read an a6300 sensor test, that ended up with the conclusion that it does not include an AA filter, and it actually does.

I was thinking of getting the M6 II modded by Kolari, but that would involve too much hassle and money...

Best,

- Macrero
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

Macrero wrote:
Adalbert wrote:Hello Macrero, hello Ray,
Could you please show me any test of the cameras with and without the aa-filter with the conclusion that the lack of the aa-filter improves the resolution significantly?
Unfortunately I haven’t found any such test up to now. Mostly the difference can be ignored e.g. NIKON D800 vs. D800E.
BR, ADi
Adi,

I have not made a direct comparison. For a such, one should compare the same camera with and without the filter. I haven't modded any camera yet.

But I have used quite a few cameras with and without AA filter and the difference is clear.

Hopefully Ray could make the comparison with the T2i, that would be very interesting.

For me, the RAWs from an AA-less sensor are easier to work with, they need less sharpening, and hence there is less risk of sharpening artifacts and increasing noise.

Btw, the D800E is not a proper AA-less camera. It still include a low-pass filter, but its effects are cancelled out by a second low-pass filter layer that reverses the effect.

Image

Best,

- Macrero
Macrero,

I have a D800 and D800E. Long ago my D800 fell from 5' and damaged the camera (and attached 24-70 lens) which were sent to Nikon for repair. I needed to get some special chip images done and ordered the D800E while the D800 was being repaired. After using the D800E I rarely used the D800 for macro work.

The D800 and D800E are almost identical cameras except for the sensor covers, I suspect that Nikon could not just remove the AA filter for the E version without messing up the lens to sensor interface. They used another type filter cover as you have shown to keep the interface intact. In the electronics area we call these "all pass networks", where the signal isn't altered except for a well controlled time delay (group delay), and surmise that Nikon is doing the optical equivalent with the D800E interface.

Best & Happy New Year,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

Macrero
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Post by Macrero »

Hi Mike,

have you made a proper comparison between the D800 and the D800E?

I don't know how the D800E AA-filter effect removal system compares to a truly AA-less sensor (e.g. D810). I guess there might be a difference, but not sure how significant or insignificant it is.

Best and Happy New Year to you too,

- Macrero
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

Macrero wrote:Hi Mike,

I don't know how the D800E AA-filter effect removal system compares to a truly AA-less sensor (e.g. D810). I guess there might be a difference, but not sure how significant or insignificant it is.

Best and Happy New Year to you too,

- Macrero
FYI


All Nikon DSLRs have a stack of glass in front of the sensor, the D850 is something like 2.5mm thick from what I've read.

Every Nikon has to include a filter stack, including the D810, from between 2 to 2.5mm since that is what Nikkor lenses are designed for.

Removing 2mm of glass from in front of a Nikon sensor would cause softness and lateral CAs.

From what I've read the closest thing to truly AA-less design is the Z series which have a filter stack measuring something close to 1.1mm, if reports are accurate.

Just grabbed my calipers. The D800E filter stack has a 0.5mm top + 1mm cemented underneath + another 1mm glued on the front of the sensor, or about 2.5mm total. Thats just what I can see, there might be more glass under the layer cemented to the sensor.

Thats probably about the same as any other D8XX series camera made by Nikon, and D7XX and the pro bodies.


All the best for a Happy New Year,

Robert

Macrero
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Post by Macrero »

Robert,

I am aware that there is a filter stack in all Nikon DSLRs. I by no means am a sensor engineering expert, but to my understanding the OLPF cancellation approach (D800E) works in a different way, with a different filter stack design than the AA-less one (D810, D850).

Not sure if there is a significant difference (if any). I have never made such comparison.

Best and Happy New Year to you and all the fellows on the forum,

- Macrero
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

Macrero wrote:Robert,

I am aware that there is a filter stack in all Nikon DSLRs. I by no means am a sensor engineering expert, but to my understanding the OLPF cancellation approach (D800E) works in a different way, with a different filter stack design than the AA-less one (D810, D850).

Not sure if there is a significant difference (if any). I have never made (or seen) such comparison.

Best and Happy New Year to you and all the fellows on the forum,

- Macrero
Had a feeling that was the case Macrero, the info was meant more for others coming across this post in the future.

Lots of, or I should say most photographers, think the D800E/D810/D850 has a bare sensor, seriously, people think when they put the camera in manual clean mode and the mirror pops up, they can see the unprotected sensor, and that is why camera shops can charge people $75-80 to clean their sensor (a job that takes a few seconds) :shock:

When people hear that all DSLRs and mirrorless cameras have a stack of glass in front of the sensor of various designs and thickness, they ask " how do you know, do you work for Nikon", as if people that work for Nikon have actually seen a D800E sensor or that they care, and I tell them, no but I have a D800E sensor sitting on my desk.

Photographers are generally a naive bunch.

Best,

Robert

Macrero
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Post by Macrero »

RobertOToole wrote:Had a feeling that was the case Macrero, the info was meant more for others coming across this post in the future.

Lots of, or I should say most photographers, think the D800E/D810/D850 has a bare sensor, seriously, people think when they put the camera in manual clean mode and the mirror pops up, they can see the unprotected sensor, and that is why camera shops can charge people $75-80 to clean their sensor (a job that takes a few seconds) :shock:

When people hear that all DSLRs and mirrorless cameras have a stack of glass in front of the sensor of various designs and thickness, they ask " how do you know, do you work for Nikon", as if people that work for Nikon have actually seen a D800E sensor or that they care, and I tell them, no but I have a D800E sensor sitting on my desk.

Photographers are generally a naive bunch.

Best,

Robert
True story...

It will be very interesting to see the result of Ray's comparison of the T2i with and without the blur filter. I have never seen a trustworthy one. Though, I guess the difference would depend on the sensor, AA-filter strength, etc, so it would not be 100% applicable to all cameras / models.

Btw, here is the article about the a6300 not having an AA filter :? Scroll down to the a6300 measuring.

https://www.strollswithmydog.com/resolu ... ameras-aa/

Best,

- Macrero
Last edited by Macrero on Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

Macrero wrote:Hi Mike,

have you made a proper comparison between the D800 and the D800E?

I don't know how the D800E AA-filter effect removal system compares to a truly AA-less sensor (e.g. D810). I guess there might be a difference, but not sure how significant or insignificant it is.

Best and Happy New Year to you too,

- Macrero
Macrero, Robert,

No never made a "proper" test, just an observation long ago. The D800 was generally bypassed for the D800E.

One reason Nikon may have done things with the D800E is they simply wanted to use all the same hardware the D800 uses, thus they couldn't reposition the sensor, nor use another sensor. Good decision IMO if this was the case, as they saved lots of $ and only needed the different sensor covers/filters AND commanded a premium for the E version.

Best & Happy New Year,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

ChrisR
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Post by ChrisR »

Sony's glass cover is heading for 0.2mm thick. Hmm, don't press too hard! I've also read their coatings are particularly fragile. :|
Chris R

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