Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

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aveslux
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 6:13 am

Re: Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

Post by aveslux »

Dalantech wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:01 am
aveslux wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:25 am
So am I right in thinking your current lighting is

Mt-26EX with 2 heads -> Drilled out diffuser cap as a bracket > layer of 1/4 stop silk > 1 cm gap > layer of 1/4 stop silk > Garry Fong puffer plus - > Subject.
That's pretty close :)
aveslux wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:25 am

That is what I also have, basically copying your setup but also extending the flash head brackets a bit because I also use a 100mm lens as well as the 65mm MPE

What would you say the gaps are between the flash bulb and the 1st layer of silk?
From the flash heads to the first layer it looks like there is about a centimeter gap. You should only have to extend the flash heads for the 100mm -that extra 2" of working distance will work against you when using a flash, and I don't recommend any macro lens in the 100mm focal range due to the difficulty in getting good specular highlights. Better off using the MP-E when shooting macro and just use the 100mm for closeups (although there are better lenses for that kind of work as well).
aveslux wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:25 am
Stupid idea I had how was about a bit of foil on the centre of the puffer plus to reflect the hotspot back into the diffuser so it reflects back around and back out? Maybe cost too much light though.
Not sure what that would do to the specular highlight (would there be a stripe in it?) and it's completely unnecessary. Currently my specular highlights at 1x are butter smooth after a couple of mods to my old diffuser design. Not gonna go into specifics cause at the end of the day I gotta have something unique for myself. Should be pretty easy to figure out though.
I'll give you some shots until you can't hold off showing off your setup again ;)

Dalantech
Posts: 694
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:57 am

Re: Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

Post by Dalantech »

aveslux wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:35 am
Dalantech wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:01 am
aveslux wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:25 am
So am I right in thinking your current lighting is

Mt-26EX with 2 heads -> Drilled out diffuser cap as a bracket > layer of 1/4 stop silk > 1 cm gap > layer of 1/4 stop silk > Garry Fong puffer plus - > Subject.
That's pretty close :)
aveslux wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:25 am

That is what I also have, basically copying your setup but also extending the flash head brackets a bit because I also use a 100mm lens as well as the 65mm MPE

What would you say the gaps are between the flash bulb and the 1st layer of silk?
From the flash heads to the first layer it looks like there is about a centimeter gap. You should only have to extend the flash heads for the 100mm -that extra 2" of working distance will work against you when using a flash, and I don't recommend any macro lens in the 100mm focal range due to the difficulty in getting good specular highlights. Better off using the MP-E when shooting macro and just use the 100mm for closeups (although there are better lenses for that kind of work as well).
aveslux wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:25 am
Stupid idea I had how was about a bit of foil on the centre of the puffer plus to reflect the hotspot back into the diffuser so it reflects back around and back out? Maybe cost too much light though.
Not sure what that would do to the specular highlight (would there be a stripe in it?) and it's completely unnecessary. Currently my specular highlights at 1x are butter smooth after a couple of mods to my old diffuser design. Not gonna go into specifics cause at the end of the day I gotta have something unique for myself. Should be pretty easy to figure out though.
I'll give you some shots until you can't hold off showing off your setup again ;)
You monster! :D

Dalantech
Posts: 694
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:57 am

Re: Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

Post by Dalantech »

I'm not sure if I'll get this effect at 1x, but at 2x and higher the specular highlights are so well diffused that they merge and it's tough to tell that I'm shooting with two separate light sources. When I set out to find a way to really diffuse the specular highlights that a twin flash makes I thought this effect might be possible, and it's cool to finally see it.

I found this pair making the 22 Spot Ladybug with two backs in my zucchini.

Tech Specs: Canon 80D (F11, 1/250, ISO 100) + a Canon MP-E 65mm macro lens (over 2x) + a diffused MT-26EX RT (E-TTL metering with -1/3 FEC). This is a single, uncropped, frame taken hand held. In post I used Topaz Denoise AI, Sharpen AI, and Clarity in that order.

ImageMating 22 Spot Ladybugs by John Kimbler, on Flickr
Last edited by Dalantech on Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aveslux
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 6:13 am

Re: Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

Post by aveslux »

Great work, looks like it's pretty much the final solution, how is it on bee faces, I think they are the challenge.

One photographer I follow where I'm always interested by the diffusion is this Japanese Instagram feed. I expect the reason they can be so good it's that perhaps it's much less than 1x plus but it's so hard to tell on Instagram.

https://instagram.com/shu_nakachi?igshid=nb79x165ejgd

Dalantech
Posts: 694
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:57 am

Re: Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

Post by Dalantech »

aveslux wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:55 pm
Great work, looks like it's pretty much the final solution, how is it on bee faces, I think they are the challenge.
Glossy black curved surfaces are still a work in progress. I didn't have a chance to test higher ISOs cause it was just too warm -barely walked away with anything to post. At ISO 200 I was able to render all of the facets in a bumblebee's compound eye, but the specular area is really shiny and it may just be an issue of light angle.

Tech Specs: Canon 80D (F11, 1/250, ISO 200) + a Canon MP-E 65mm macro lens (over 2x) + a diffused MT-26EX RT (E-TTL metering). This is a single, uncropped, frame taken hand held. In post I used Topaz Denoise AI, Sharpen AI, and Clarity in that order.

ImageBumblebee Portrait by John Kimbler, on Flickr
aveslux wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:55 pm
One photographer I follow where I'm always interested by the diffusion is this Japanese Instagram feed. I expect the reason they can be so good it's that perhaps it's much less than 1x plus but it's so hard to tell on Instagram.

https://instagram.com/shu_nakachi?igshid=nb79x165ejgd
Judging by the diffusion level, specular highlight shape, and the loss of most of the shadows I'd say he's using a large-ish diffuser out at the end of the lens and he's firing a camera mounted flash through it. Some people like that dead even flat light, and the diffusion is good, but to me it just looks dead even and flat. Easy to end up with a 2D image with that kind of light. I know a lot of people are using it because it's one of the easiest ways to get good diffusion. I've even seen some fire a twin flash into that kind of diffuser, turning two flash heads into a single light source (triggers my mild OCD ;) ).

Dalantech
Posts: 694
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:57 am

Re: Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

Post by Dalantech »

Here's another torture test, taken with version 2.0 of my MT26EX RT diffuser (on version 3 now). You'll have to excuse the black background in this Digger Wasp shot. I took it in the field in an area where there was no significant natural light in the background and nothing behind the critter to reflect the light from the flash. Had to get a shot though cause I rarely see them. A heat of the day shot of a critter that was more hungry than afraid.

Tech Specs: Canon 80D (F11, 1/250, ISO 200) + a Canon MP-E 65mm macro lens (2x) + a diffused MT-26EX RT (E-TTL metering). This is a single, uncropped, frame taken hand held. In post I used Topaz Denoise AI, Sharpen AI, and Clarity in that order.

ImageDigger Wasp by John Kimbler, on Flickr

Dalantech
Posts: 694
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:57 am

Re: Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

Post by Dalantech »

Here's another example of the light quality I'm getting with version 2.0 of the new diffuser design (a compact set). Waiting on parts to build version 3.0.

I found this Cricket foraging on a Dandelion at the Monte Orlando Nature Preserve in Gaeta, Italy. Shot in the late morning this critter was more hungry than afraid.

Tech Specs: Canon 80D (F11, 1/125, ISO 200) + a Canon MP-E 65mm macro lens (over 2x) + a diffused MT-26EX RT (E-TTL metering). This is a single, uncropped, frame taken hand held. In post I used Topaz Denoise AI and Clarity in that order. I dragged the shutter to expose for the natural light in the background while keeping the subject in the shade.

ImageForaging Cricket II by John Kimbler, on Flickr

Guido
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:02 am

Re: Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

Post by Guido »

I use a softbox on my flash (1:1) LINK KLICK
I get nice and soft light with the stofen omnibounce and the sofbox togheter.

Dalantech
Posts: 694
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:57 am

Re: Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

Post by Dalantech »

Guido wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:16 am
I use a softbox on my flash (1:1) LINK KLICK
I get nice and soft light with the stofen omnibounce and the sofbox togheter.
Do you have any sample images to show me?

Guido
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:02 am

Re: Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

Post by Guido »

This picture is made with softbox. http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 26&t=41968

This is made with Omnibounce & softbox https://astapix.be/forum2/GuidoFranssen ... j1024j.jpg

Dalantech
Posts: 694
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:57 am

Re: Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

Post by Dalantech »

Guido wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:34 am
This picture is made with softbox. http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 26&t=41968

This is made with Omnibounce & softbox https://astapix.be/forum2/GuidoFranssen ... j1024j.jpg
The light looks good, but you still have a "hot spot" in your diffuser. You're shooting with a light source that's "soft specular" like I was before I redesigned my diffuser.

Dalantech
Posts: 694
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:57 am

Re: Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

Post by Dalantech »

After a few test diffuser sets I built a new set that's about 50% bigger than the original one that I built. The specular reflections in the water drops are barely noticeable due to how well my new diffuser design is working (I didn't do anything to tone down those highlights in post). If you zoom in you can even see texture in the surface of the water drop on the male, and a very feint reflection of my diffusers that's more noticeable at lower magnifications but still just a reflection (no blown highlights).

Tech Specs: Canon 80D (F11, 1/250, ISO 200) + a Canon MP-E 65mm macro lens (3x) + a diffused MT-26EX RT (E-TTL metering with -1/3 FEC). This is a single, uncropped, frame taken hand held. In post I used Topaz Denoise AI and Clarity in that order.

ImageMating 22 Spot Ladybugs III by John Kimbler, on Flickr

Here's a sample of the light quality at its worst since the mag is about 1x. Lots of specular reflections but there's texture and detail in them:

ImageFeeding Hoverfly II by John Kimbler, on Flickr

Bryce McQuillan
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Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 3:28 pm
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

Post by Bryce McQuillan »

Concave type seems to be the most reliable, but this can often lead to the diffuser scaring some subjects if you don't approach them carefully.

Nicky Bay setup seems to work fairly well: https://www.nickybay.com/

I have been using a concave type for many years now.


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Bryce
www.brycephotography.co.nz/
Bryce McQuillan

Dalantech
Posts: 694
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:57 am

Re: Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

Post by Dalantech »

Bryce McQuillan wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:44 pm
Concave type seems to be the most reliable, but this can often lead to the diffuser scaring some subjects if you don't approach them carefully.
I experimented with some concave designs a few years ago and really didn't see a noticeable difference in performance over a convex diffuser like I'm using now.
Bryce McQuillan wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:44 pm
Nicky Bay setup seems to work fairly well: https://www.nickybay.com/
Nick is doing what quite a few macro shooters are doing to tame a twin flash by firing both heads into a single diffuser that's connected to the end of a lens. The end result is light that looks soft because the diffuser at the end of the lens is large relative to the subject so the shadows are soft (a good thing). But he's no longer getting the benefit of using two different light sources (shadow control) and the light ends up looking a little too flat for my tastes because the subject "sees" it as a single light source. Although it is good if you're shooting a lot of spiders due to the way that the reflection of the diffuser(s) look in the critter's eyes. It's also possible to create a light that looks soft/specular and not soft/diffused because it's easy to create hot spots with the twin flash if it's not diffused well before hitting the diffuser at the end of the lens, or too close to it.

I'd rather use a twin flash in a key (one head at the top of the lens) and fill (one at the side) so I get get better control over where the highlights and shadows fall. Also allows me to point the flash heads directly at what I'm trying to light so that the duration of the flash is as short as possible (easier to freeze motion). Due to how well diffused my light is now I'm picking up a lot more texture detail -the light isn't blowing it out. I took this one at 2.5x:

ImageMating 22 Spot Ladybugs IV by John Kimbler, on Flickr

aveslux
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 6:13 am

Re: Diffusing a Macro Twin Flash

Post by aveslux »

If your diffusers are bigger now are you still using the Gary Fong puffer plus as the final layer?

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