Wide Angle View at macro / micro scale

A forum to ask questions, post setups, and generally discuss anything having to do with photomacrography and photomicroscopy.

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bradon
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Wide Angle View at macro / micro scale

Post by bradon »

This might be a completely ridiculous question, but is there a way to get a wider filed of view with a micro/macro objective? I'm thinking something around 10X to 50X magnification.

because the lens is zooming in the effect is like a telephoto lens where the scene flattens out a bit, but is there a way to "fisheye" or make more spherical the optics? I'd like to see more FOV on a macro scale. Maybe something that can hook up to an endoscope?

Just wild guesses on my part.

Cactusdave
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Post by Cactusdave »

The simplest way to do this is by stitching together a series of overlapping pictures at whatever macro or micro level of magnification you like. This is done using stitching software such as Microsoft Image Composite Editor (ICE) which is free to download. This technique is used quite a lot on the Forum and if you look for my image contributions, you will find many are stitches. This technique does require some care in acquiring the overlapping images in a systematic way with adequate overlap. It also requires that the subject does not move! :lol:
Leitz Ortholux 1, Zeiss standard, Nikon Diaphot inverted, Canon photographic gear

ChrisR
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Post by ChrisR »

I suspect Bradon is after a way to get what might loosely be decribed as more of a bug-eyed perspective, while very close up.
The problem with most macro systems is that the entrance pupil to the lens system is too far into the lens, so you're effectively "looking from too far away", even though you get a lot of detail.

You DO do better with shorter FL "simple" lenses, and you'll see the difference in perspective if you look for it, but the physics of getting a large enough aperture to give good resolution, gets in the way. Cine lenses can get towards that.
You can use very short a lens such as you might find in an endoscope, but only for lowish resolution. SOme fellow has a web gallery with many such photos, I don't remember his name - someone might.
One you might (or might not) want to have a look at is the Frazier lens, discussed here : http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=10303 which turns out to be useful with its various rotations, but TV resolution only. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to break the usual rules of optics!

Another gizmo, of Krebsian origin, which you might want to have a Search for in this forum, is the OlyMinCan. You'll enjoy that ;)

enricosavazzi
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Post by enricosavazzi »

A solution is to use a composite optical system (in practice a somewhat specialized type of microscope). I did this once with a very short focal length videocamera lens (around 3 mm FL if I remember correctly) and a 25 mm Leica photomacrography lens some distance at its rear, in the optical place usually taken by a projection eyepiece.

The videocam lens is one of the types with a very small entrance opening (about 2 mm wide), designed for concealing. This small hole at the front of the conical lens barrel is actually located at the front entrance pupil, which itself is outside the lens, about 10 mm in front of its front element, because of the unusual optical scheme of these lenses. I can't recall right now what this lens type is called in the videosurveillance circles. It is basically a reversed extreme retrofocus.

I have pictures of the setup in my photomacrography book, but right now no way to check it up. Image quality is of course quite limited by diffraction, but basically there is no other practical way to do it.

The Frazier lens is partly similar, since it uses one or two internal relay lenses to increase the distance between camera and outermost lens and to place some prisms/mirrors in between.
--ES

MiB
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Re: Wide Angle View at macro / micro scale

Post by MiB »

bradon wrote:This might be a completely ridiculous question, but is there a way to get a wider filed of view with a micro/macro objective? I'm thinking something around 10X to 50X magnification.

because the lens is zooming in the effect is like a telephoto lens where the scene flattens out a bit, but is there a way to "fisheye" or make more spherical the optics? I'd like to see more FOV on a macro scale. Maybe something that can hook up to an endoscope?

Just wild guesses on my part.
Dear Brandon,


Do you search for something like projection mapping? - https://www.google.at/search?q=photosho ... l&tbm=isch

like this:http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/exchange/i ... id=1566018

or the opposite of this:http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/exchange/i ... id=2404022

with this technique you can make images look like fisheye or fisheyimages flat.

I guess if you combine stitching and projection mapping you can get high resolution images that look like those of an endoscope.

with the help of some members of this forum I did a project that utilized stitching about half a year ago: http://mib.fcmappers.net/projects/the-p ... -connects/ on this sie you will also find a link to a larger version. Unfortunately it would make not much sense to use projection mapping on a flat butterfly wing.

Am I right, that for instance ou want to create an image of a fly (or whatever), where the image shows much more perspective distortion and by this some things should look much closer than others?

Cheers,
m.

patta
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Re: Wide Angle View at macro / micro scale

Post by patta »

after some years, if nobody has done yet, I'm on it.
The setup is like the one described by Savazzi.
Can get about 10:1. Image quality so so, specially at the wide corners.
I'll try to post the setup and some photos soon.

dolmadis
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Re: Wide Angle View at macro / micro scale

Post by dolmadis »

Looking forward to it............it is of great interest to me and others I suspect.

Watching......hoping soon.

John

patta
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Re: Wide Angle View at macro / micro scale

Post by patta »

Wait a little more... & don't expect too much!
I got lost in writing an exceedingly long introduction, while description of the setup is still to do (and many photos too).

Summary introduction
- Micro-wide can be done
- To keep the wide-angle effect (subject in focus, background blurred but recognizable), max subject resolution is 10 micron / NA max 0,025. Higher NA will totally blur the background. NA 0,1 should be feasible (with blurred background or stacking)

- the Laowa 24mm probe lens basically does the job up to 2x
- Al Nagler designed an objective in 1971 that also did the job
- endoscopes do the job but at low resolution & high cost
- the relay system, M12 fisheye mounted in front of a macro, does the job

all the above are great, but macro, not micro (magnification 1x -2x, NA < 0,05)
we are going micro with the working distance offered by forward-pupil objectives


Link to the document with more details (work in progress)
https://patta107285337.wordpress.com/micro-fisheye/

patta
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Re: Wide Angle View at macro / micro scale

Post by patta »

Hei,
I've opened a brand new thread on the subject, more small threads!
https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... =8&t=42759

David Sykes
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Re: Wide Angle View at macro / micro scale

Post by David Sykes »

> I can't recall right now what this lens type is called in the videosurveillance circles.

A surveillance or TV camera pinhole lens.
Looking in my shed, I have a Lenzar Optics 9mm f3.5 pinhole lens, bought many decades ago.
Virtually no info available, but Cosmicar also made them.

Ebay item # 324007712341

Review here https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62358505

It is not wide angle.

Time to clean it up and try it out.

David

dolmadis
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Re: Wide Angle View at macro / micro scale

Post by dolmadis »

David Sykes wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:18 pm
> I can't recall right now what this lens type is called in the videosurveillance circles.

A surveillance or TV camera pinhole lens.
Looking in my shed, I have a Lenzar Optics 9mm f3.5 pinhole lens, bought many decades ago.
Virtually no info available, but Cosmicar also made them.

Ebay item # 324007712341

Review here https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62358505

It is not wide angle.

Time to clean it up and try it out.

David
Hi David

How do it go?

How did you mount it and on what camera?

Best, Joihn

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