Portulaca seeds

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Pau
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Portulaca seeds

Post by Pau »

Nicola was extremely kind sending me a small bag of Portulaca seeds, the awesome ones with colorful metallic luster he posted at viewtopic.php?p=271602#p271602

They maintain its metallic aspect at all magnifications. I plan to grow some of them to see if they produce such beautiful seeds

Taken with Olympus LMPlanFl 20/0.40 objective, Sigma LSA as tube lens, about 22X on EOS 7D sensor
2021-04-26-20.52.48 ZS PMaxCorrBR.jpg
Stereo pair
2021-04-27-13.45.19 ZS stereo_000crossBR.jpg
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Beatsy
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Re: Portulaca seeds

Post by Beatsy »

Oooh, purdy! Nicely stacked too. Do the colours change completely if you rotate the seed relative to the lights or is each 'jigsaw piece' the same basic hue at all/most orientations? Thanks.

nic
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Re: Portulaca seeds

Post by nic »

"They maintain its metallic aspect at all magnifications. I plan to grow some of them to see if they produce such beautiful seeds"



Congratulations on the result, really beautiful colors! I was also thinking about growing some of these seeds, hoping they will germinate!
nicola merloni

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Re: Portulaca seeds

Post by Pau »

Now another stereo pair with the Nikon CFI Plan 10/0.25 somewhat cropped, same setup but less diffused light
2021-04-27-20.10X stereo_CrossBR.jpg
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Pau
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Re: Portulaca seeds

Post by Pau »

Beatsy wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:23 am
.. Do the colours change completely if you rotate the seed relative to the lights or is each 'jigsaw piece' the same basic hue at all/most orientations? Thanks.
Thanks Steve,
They change but not very much. Later will try with a proper microscope rotatable stage.
Your question spoiled me to take a first dirty test with cross polarized. The colors don't disappear like insect structural ones but become insanely saturated more like some metals at high magnification...also will try later with better equipment
Single frame and single fiber optic light source
IMG_000510X Xpol.jpg
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MarkSturtevant
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Re: Portulaca seeds

Post by MarkSturtevant »

Very nicely done!
Mark Sturtevant
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rjlittlefield
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Re: Portulaca seeds

Post by rjlittlefield »

Really interesting seeds! The package that nic sent to me arrived today. The seeds in the bag have a clearly metallic sheen, even to naked eye.

I did a little more web search this evening.

At http://www.kyffhauser.co.za/Plants1/Por ... /Index.htm , I found this snippet (emphasis added):
Annual herb, stems usually spreading or prostrate, up to 30 cm long, often reddish. Leaves alternate to subopposite, obovate/spathulate to oblong, up to 30 x 12 mm, base attenuate into obscure petiole, tip rounded; axils with a few inconspicuous hairs to 1 mm long, often soon lost. Flowers up to 5 together within involucre of leaf-like bracts and an inner whorl of triangular scales, often apparently lateral or in fork of branch because of overtopping by later growth. Sepals 2–4 mm long, fleshy, keeled or winged near tips. Petals 5, dull yellow, 4–8 mm long, tip rounded. Stamens 7–12. Stigma 3–6-lobed. Capsule ovoid to obovoid, splitting near or just below middle; lid hemispherical, usually with narrow, more strongly veined extension at tip which retains a few seeds within it. Seeds many, c. 1 mm long, glossy black with no metallic sheen; testa cells conspicuously stellate, dorsal cells usually with conspicuous swollen-tipped peg-like tubercles. (from JSTOR Global Plants website)
So now I'm wondering if this description is incorrect/incomplete, or if perhaps there is a closely related species for which metallic sheen is a distinguishing feature. So many questions, so little time...

--Rik

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Re: Portulaca seeds

Post by rjlittlefield »

Some more information on this issue of metallic appearance...

Google search for portulaca oleracea seeds "metallic" found a Google Books entry for "Synoptical Flora of North America, Volume 1, Issue 1", which on pages 263-264 says that
P. olerácea ... seeds black, obtusely granulate ...
...
P. stellifórmis ... seeds blackish, granulate-tuberculate, with metallic lustre ...
...
P. pilósa ... seeds blackish and with metallic lustre, muriculate-granulose ...
I note also that all the pictures we have of nic's seeds show distinct peg-like projections, while other photos of seeds that do not have the metallic appearance, such as at http://idtools.org/id/table_grape/weed- ... r-ole.html , also do not have the distinct pegs.

This is still pushing me in the direction of thinking that these seeds are not P. oleracea, but rather some closely related species.

--Rik

Edited to add: another reference, "The Systematic Significance of Seed Morphology in Portulaca (Portulacaceae) Under Scanning Electron Microscopy", includes photos of several forms of pilosa (but does not include grandiflora, mentioned below by nic). This paper is currently available without restriction at http://cactus-aventures.com/Portulaca%2 ... ws1986.pdf , should be available long term with free registration at http://www.jstor.org/stable/2419120 .

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Re: Portulaca seeds

Post by nic »

rjlittlefield wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:51 pm

So now I'm wondering if this description is incorrect/incomplete, or if perhaps there is a closely related species for which metallic sheen is a distinguishing feature. So many questions, so little time...

--Rik
Very interesting Rik, I will search the net too (so far I have found the description of an African species - P. hereroensis - with seeds of metallic sheen) and then I will return to the field to look for Portulaca oleracea again, although I do not remember exactly where I found those seeds (I'm sorry for this ... but I am confident to find plants with seeds again) .. See you soon, Nic
nicola merloni

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Re: Portulaca seeds

Post by nic »

nic wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 11:16 am
rjlittlefield wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:51 pm

So now I'm wondering if this description is incorrect/incomplete, or if perhaps there is a closely related species for which metallic sheen is a distinguishing feature. So many questions, so little time...

--Rik
Very interesting Rik, I will search the net too (so far I have found the description of an African species - P. hereroensis - with seeds of metallic sheen) and then I will return to the field to look for Portulaca oleracea again, although I do not remember exactly where I found those seeds (I'm sorry for this ... but I am confident to find plants with seeds again) .. See you soon, Nic
it is also possible that I was wrong in attributing these seeds to the Portulaca oleracea species; I often collect seeds - one of my favorite subjects - but sometimes I do it quickly, and without noticing precisely the species and the place of collection. In this case I found the seeds with only a few dry capsules in a box, perhaps a long time after harvest, and it is possible that the attribution of these seeds to P. oleracea is incorrect. I'll come back to collect the 'oleracea' seeds and then I'll let you know ..
nicola merloni

Pau
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Re: Portulaca seeds

Post by Pau »

Searching with some more patience I've also found few images and infos of Portulaca metallic looking seeds.
All they point to other species than P. oleracea

http://cellimagelibrary.org/images/41657
https://cdeep3m-viewer.crbs.ucsd.edu/im ... /CIL_41657 (Honorable mention at Olympus BioScapes 2011!)

http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx? ... _id=126612
4 (3) Leaves subterete, linear-oblong, Flowers 2-5 cm across. Petals 5 or more, pale brown or yellow spotted at the base. emarginate. Seeds metallic grey or greyish-black Portulaca grandiflora
https://www.biotaxa.org/Phytotaxa/artic ... xa.376.1.7
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nic
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Re: Portulaca seeds

Post by nic »

Pau wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:19 am
Searching with some more patience I've also found few images and infos of Portulaca metallic looking seeds.
All they point to other species than P. oleracea
for example, searching for 'portulaca grandiflora seeds', images with seeds very similar to those photographed appear. So it may be that I have collected the seeds of this plant - very common, cultivated and sometimes tending to become wild - and then mistakenly attributed them to P. oleracea ..

https://www.backyardnature.net/n/h/portulac.htm
nicola merloni

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Re: Portulaca seeds

Post by Beatsy »

After watching this thread develop toward a fairly confident ID, I ordered a small pack of "portulaca grandiflora double mix" seeds which just arrived. This is only a quick "news" post as I happened to be online anyway - proper pics another time.

First impressions: the seeds are tiny. I expected larger. At first glance and under a 10x loupe they are pitch black with no colour at all. Uh-oh. However, at 50x under a stereo with strong light, I see "jigsaw pieces" with a metallic, green/orange sheen. So these may be the right ones after all. I'll have a go at some high mag stacks soon - probably later today. Seeya...

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Re: Portulaca seeds

Post by nic »

Beatsy wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 1:46 am
After watching this thread develop toward a fairly confident ID, I ordered a small pack of "portulaca grandiflora double mix" seeds which just arrived. This is only a quick "news" post as I happened to be online anyway - proper pics another time.

First impressions: the seeds are tiny. I expected larger. At first glance and under a 10x loupe they are pitch black with no colour at all. Uh-oh. However, at 50x under a stereo with strong light, I see "jigsaw pieces" with a metallic, green/orange sheen. So these may be the right ones after all. I'll have a go at some high mag stacks soon - probably later today. Seeya...
if you want some seeds of mine, quite strongly colored (and on whose determination I am now quite sure, that is P. grandiflora) I will gladly send them to you; in this case, please let me know your postal address in private email.
Sincerely, nic
nicola merloni

Beatsy
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Re: Portulaca seeds

Post by Beatsy »

nic wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 5:51 am
if you want some seeds of mine, quite strongly colored (and on whose determination I am now quite sure, that is P. grandiflora) I will gladly send them to you; in this case, please let me know your postal address in private email.
Sincerely, nic
Thanks for your kind offer Nic, but I'm good with the (not so good) ones I just got. There are plenty of excellent pics already posted of yours and I couldn't really do anything better (or different) to those. But I'll keep a cheeky, mental rain-check in case you find some other, equally amazing seeds in future!! :D

I hoped for a bit of variation by buying a "mixed" set. These are definitely "different", but the most colourful ones are very speckled. I've anchored a few to pins so I can try whizzing them in the ultrasonic and various liquids to maybe bring more colour out. But that's a ways down the list at the mo - so here's a quick stack of a mounted one pre-cleaning. It's one of the more colourful ones - or least colourless, anyway. FoV is about 0.8mm.
2021-05-21-16.44.13 ZS PMax_1.jpg
2021-05-21-16.47.45 ZS PMax_000_1.jpg

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