Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

[CrispyBee]

Hello colleagues again
I have some additional lenses I want to mention, as I still didn't decide the direction to go with.
my current setup also changed, now I have 300mm bellows, so more option for closeups/longer lenses, still with sony camera.

1. If i go with Pentax 645 120mm maco at set it to it's focal f.dist. , it's ~70mm, then i will be able to focus 1:1, and if i move the front standard further, I will be able to get even closer to 2:1, right?
Maybe i will have a job to photograph eye lens which is 6mm in diameter.

In theory yes. But whether it's practical is another matter. You may encounter issues with image quality if you're not setting the flange focal distance correctly infinity-1x (meaning when you use the focus ring on the lens).
Using the lens beyond 1x with extension is not a good idea, it won't be optimised for that, you'd probably be better off using a 2x teleconverter attached directly to the lens.

2. I have additional macro lenses to mention, what's your opinion on them (I remind that I do have apo-digitar 90mm 4.5 "N"- non macro version)
Rodenstock Apo Sironar Digital Macro 5,6/120 ~1000$
Fujifilm Fujinon A 180/9 - isn't it too dark for using with strobes for macro? because if i close it down to f16, it will need too much flash power
Schneider Makro-Symmar HM 180mm - and if i have to go to ~342mm extention(2*180-18mm) in order to get 1:1?
Rodenstock 210mm f/5.6 Macro-Sironar-N MC BT Copal 3
Schneider apo digitar 120mm macro lens (~800-1000$)

Pentax 120 (~350$) and Mamiya 140 (~200$) macros are still an option for consideration
All of them can be mounted on my tech. camera lens plates
How these lenses perform?

You're mixing and comparing regular large format lenses with specialised macro lenses for large format and medium format bayonet lenses with internal focusing and medium format lenses for bellows cameras - all with entirely different specifications, requirements and characteristics.
You have to figure out how much extension you can realistically work with and what you want to do, that alone will exclude a lot of focal lengths and lenses, then look at what sort of aperture you would want to have at the highest magnification. Also read up on effective aperture and what that means for macro photography.
The too will exclude a lot of lenses.

3. I wonder if I will see any difference between them IQ wise up to 60mp on FF?

With many of those you'll see a difference even on 20MP on FF.

4. If i buy just regular non-macro dedicated lens like SK/Rodenstock apo 150mm, will it perform good for 1:1, if i extended to 300mm?
CM Fujinon W 180mm f5.6
Schneider Kreuznach Apo Symmar MC 180mm f/5.6
Rodenstock Apo-Sironar-N 180mm F5.6

Depends on what you consider to be "good". On a 60MP FF you'll certainly be disappointed. Also - do you 'want' to work with a 300mm extension just to get to 1x? Is it the working distance you're after or the ability for lens/camera movements? Because you can get that with your 90mm Schneider already.

5. It's not macro related question, but i do photograph paintings for reproductions and canvas macro "clarity"/details are importrant. Currently I use my Nikkors pc-e 45 and 85mm for it, it's OK. Buy If I buy Rodagon-s 60mm HR, will it be much better?

There's no such thing as a "macro clarity" or "macro details", if what you want is a high resolution image with good clarity for painting repros you need a good lens with low distortion and shoot it with a reasonable aperture under controlled lighting, maybe with the possibility for cross-polarisation.

Could you post a link to the "Rodagon-s 60mm HR"? Never heard of such a lens. But generally speaking - what's missing from your current repro images?

[Allthink]

Hi CrispyBee

Sorry, i misspelled the name, it's Rodenstock 60mm f/4 HR Digaron-S Lens. All this german namings confuse sometimes. So i wonder if that one will be better than my current PC-E 85mm(the last version) on 45mp ff sensor.

I just currently upgraded to 300mm rail, so have more lens options instead of shorter 155mm rail. So i can use longer macro lenses like 120/150mm.
About the other lenses I mentioned, yes, i mixed them, but it's ok, because i can buy any lens plate for my actus and use any of them, hence I wanted to know how they perform, compare, on digital, with movements. Anyone that used at least 2 of them and can get me idea which one is better to go with will be good.
I can shoot regular product, macro jerewlry, but currently interested in shooting small subject 6mm in diameter, so wonder which lens i can pair with my current bellows that allow me a extension.

I did try longest extension with my apo digitar 90mm, it's ok, but this lens wasn't optimised i assume for such long extention of 300mm, and even then i can't get 6mm subject to fill a frame of my ff sony, hence I asked about 180mm makro symmar and other makro lenses, i want to pick one to be able to shoot small subjects 1:1 and higher magnification, even it's very rare that i need that hight magnification, usually i don't go beyond 1:1.

You mentioned that i may see a difference between them even at 20mp, not only on 60mp, so what difference I will see between them in reality, something specific you know about and can mention?

[lothman]

Clarification: Yes, I do have auto focus bracketing with my 150mm sigma and Nikon and use it sometimes, but it's FF, can't get movements. For cambo actus, I have to buy everything from scratch. And If I later buy GFX/DB, of course what movements i can get with my FF lenses?, none.

interesting to follow your lens trip, but I'm still not sure what will be your final destination?. In case of a Fuji GFX lenses with bigger image circle make sense, but for FF Sony I am not convinced why you need movement between camera and lens. Tilting for adjusting the focal plane in macro can be done via focus bracketing and shifting for perspective correction can also be done via software. So we have lateral stitching the large image circle what also could be done via panorama stitching of several pictures with camera+lenses moved instead of camera moved within the image circle.
You were talking you are on the search for better image quality. I found the Sigma 105 at f2.8 outresolving the 60 MP Sony sensor:
viewtopic.php?p=288510#p288510

If you want a lens with big image circle surpassing a modern full frame macro lens, this is like searching of a truck being as fast as a Porsche on the race track. I don't want to spoil your party but in case you want pictures for customers of paintings, jewelry... you can do this with the equipment you already own and may be have a deeper look in software enhancing your results.

This is a russian deckwatch stacked from 173 single files (Sigma 105mm macro lens f4 on Sony A7rv), click it big and check whether you are missing details:
http://www.lolux.de/Lothar/A7rv_Uhr/Sta ... Bilder.jpg

[Allthink]

Thanks lothman for your input
Amazing detail of watch that you shot with your 60mp ff camera.
But, as i do already have technical camera, I don't want to do focus bracketing /stitching, and spend more time on it. I prefer to do it via camera within 1 frame via tilt to get everything in focus, or at max. to go for 2-3 frames and not more. Also some perspective "hero" shots of product via shift is much preferable for me than going and fixing the screwed image via stretching the pixels of a bottle via software, and prefer to have a higher quality pixels via the perspective control via the tech. camera.

Also, imagine if you have to do dozens of images with (your) technique of bracketing and then to deal with software stitching, how much time you are killing, it's not something the client will pay for. If it's one image for advertisement, then ok, but if it's multiple items or even a catalog, no way(for me). You will spend much time multiple bracketing, which will take much more space on pc, then process all of them on helicon/ps etc., it's too much time, especially for "catalog" type shots. Finally focus bracketing sometimes yields bad results(depending on the lens) in the stitching state.

For the final destination, in my case it's not set. I want to have fun from equipment i own, to get creative shots i never did before, play with movements, get interesting compositions, try different lenses and hear opinion of colleagues of how they find their performance. Specifically here on the forum my questions are more technical, while the creative side of it I leave for myself. Also there can be multiple destinations, one day i can photograph architecture, another products, i like that i have different subjects to shoot.

[Allthink]

Anyone knows about Nikon 120mm f6.3 for nikon F multiphot lens? In what years it was produced?
How good it is on digital with movements, and if compared to other alternatives i mentioned before?

[Allthink]

I was able to do some test today with ruler and surprising, i thought that with 60mm i would be able to fill the frame of 6mm contact lens and it wasn't the case, only 9mm of ruler in frame, while with 90mm i got 16mm in frame. I was extended full 300mm , by the calculations, i should get this 6mm to fill the frame but i didn't.

I attach, first image with apo-digitar 90mm f4.5 , second with 60mm f4 rodenstock
Can't attach image even i downsized to 1920px

[CrispyBee]

I was able to do some test today with ruler and surprising, i thought that with 60mm i would be able to fill the frame of 6mm contact lens and it wasn't the case, only 9mm of ruler in frame, while with 90mm i got 16mm in frame. I was extended full 300mm , by the calculations, i should get this 6mm to fill the frame but i didn't.

I attach, first image with apo-digitar 90mm f4.5 , second with 60mm f4 rodenstock
Can't attach image even i downsized to 1920px

Size of object: 6mm
Size of fullframe sensor (approx.) 36x24 mm

Magnification required to fill sensor height with object: 4x.
Magnification required to fill sensor width with object: 6x.

90mm APO-Digitar:
Flange focal distance = approx. 85mm.
Total extension = 300mm.
Extension after reaching infinity = 215mm
Magnification at 215mm extension = 2.39x
FOV at 2.39x =15mm width


60mm Rodenstock:
Flange focal distance = approx. 64mm.
Total extension = 300mm.
Extension after reaching infinity = 236mm
Magnification at 215mm extension = 3.93x
FOV at 3.93x =9,1mm width


I don't know what's surprising about that result, seems to be exactly what would or should be expected.

[Allthink]

Yes, you are right. Mistakenly, i measured the horizontal distance, which was 9mm, so the vertical is 6mm.

I tested my Rodenstock rodagon 60mm f/4, as well as apo-digitar 90mm f4.5, and wasn't impressed with the resolving power and sharpness.
I wonder if the newer Schneider componon 60mm hm will be better or maybe the Rodenstock apo-rodagon n 50mm, as well as Nikkor N 63mm enlaring lens and the mentioned old Nikkor Multiphot 65mm.
I need more resolving lens, at 100% zoom the sharpness/resolution wasn't as good as i wanted.

[CrispyBee]

I don't like to quote myself but:

You're mixing and comparing regular large format lenses with specialised macro lenses for large format and medium format bayonet lenses with internal focusing and medium format lenses for bellows cameras - all with entirely different specifications, requirements and characteristics.
You have to figure out how much extension you can realistically work with and what you want to do, that alone will exclude a lot of focal lengths and lenses, then look at what sort of aperture you would want to have at the highest magnification. Also read up on effective aperture and what that means for macro photography.
The too will exclude a lot of lenses.

All these lenses are not made for your desired magnification.
All these lenses have a really small effective aperture at your desired magnification, especially after stopping them down far enough so you can get rid of various aberrations, so none of them will deliver a 100% sharp/highly resolved image, at least not in what we (as macro photographers) would consider as such.

If you need approx. 4x magnification on a high res fullframe sensor you can't get there with these kind of lenses (and you won't be able to use camera/lens movements in a reasonable and practicable manner at that magnification anyway).

What you need are dedicated macro/micro lenses/objectives in a steady, solid setup and you need to focus stack, otherwise you won't get very far.

You can get there with a cheap solution like an AmScope 4x Plan objective, a more expensive Laowa 25mm 2,5-5x, an even more expensive Mitutoyo 5x APO Plan (with a short tube lens) or go all out and get a Qioptiq Mag.x 5x LD Plan Apo. They all have their pros and cons but you need to know the basics behind the whole technique first, otherwise you won't be happy with the results either.

[Allthink]

I don't like to quote myself but:

You're mixing and comparing regular large format lenses with specialised macro lenses for large format and medium format bayonet lenses with internal focusing and medium format lenses for bellows cameras - all with entirely different specifications, requirements and characteristics.
You have to figure out how much extension you can realistically work with and what you want to do, that alone will exclude a lot of focal lengths and lenses, then look at what sort of aperture you would want to have at the highest magnification. Also read up on effective aperture and what that means for macro photography.
The too will exclude a lot of lenses.

All these lenses are not made for your desired magnification.
All these lenses have a really small effective aperture at your desired magnification, especially after stopping them down far enough so you can get rid of various aberrations, so none of them will deliver a 100% sharp/highly resolved image, at least not in what we (as macro photographers) would consider as such.

If you need approx. 4x magnification on a high res fullframe sensor you can't get there with these kind of lenses (and you won't be able to use camera/lens movements in a reasonable and practicable manner at that magnification anyway).

What you need are dedicated macro/micro lenses/objectives in a steady, solid setup and you need to focus stack, otherwise you won't get very far.

You can get there with a cheap solution like an AmScope 4x Plan objective, a more expensive Laowa 25mm 2,5-5x, an even more expensive Mitutoyo 5x APO Plan (with a short tube lens) or go all out and get a Qioptiq Mag.x 5x LD Plan Apo. They all have their pros and cons but you need to know the basics behind the whole technique first, otherwise you won't be happy with the results either.

Thanks CrispyBee
So you think even the newer apo rodagon and componon hm still will not deliver good results for my 4x magnification?
Don't you think that Laowa is too wide for product shot?
And do you know how older Canon mp-65 compares to this Laowa in terms of IQ?

Also, the 25mm Laowa means i have to be very close to the subject, and hence will not be able to light it properly.

[CrispyBee]

I don't like to quote myself but:

You're mixing and comparing regular large format lenses with specialised macro lenses for large format and medium format bayonet lenses with internal focusing and medium format lenses for bellows cameras - all with entirely different specifications, requirements and characteristics.
You have to figure out how much extension you can realistically work with and what you want to do, that alone will exclude a lot of focal lengths and lenses, then look at what sort of aperture you would want to have at the highest magnification. Also read up on effective aperture and what that means for macro photography.
The too will exclude a lot of lenses.

All these lenses are not made for your desired magnification.
All these lenses have a really small effective aperture at your desired magnification, especially after stopping them down far enough so you can get rid of various aberrations, so none of them will deliver a 100% sharp/highly resolved image, at least not in what we (as macro photographers) would consider as such.

If you need approx. 4x magnification on a high res fullframe sensor you can't get there with these kind of lenses (and you won't be able to use camera/lens movements in a reasonable and practicable manner at that magnification anyway).

What you need are dedicated macro/micro lenses/objectives in a steady, solid setup and you need to focus stack, otherwise you won't get very far.

You can get there with a cheap solution like an AmScope 4x Plan objective, a more expensive Laowa 25mm 2,5-5x, an even more expensive Mitutoyo 5x APO Plan (with a short tube lens) or go all out and get a Qioptiq Mag.x 5x LD Plan Apo. They all have their pros and cons but you need to know the basics behind the whole technique first, otherwise you won't be happy with the results either.

Thanks CrispyBee
So you think even the newer apo rodagon and componon hm still will not deliver good results for my 4x magnification?
Don't you think that Laowa is too wide for product shot?
And do you know how older Canon mp-65 compares to this Laowa in terms of IQ?

Also, the 25mm Laowa means i have to be very close to the subject, and hence will not be able to light it properly.

Well you are simply limited by physics and lens design. Doesn't matter if the lens is brand new or 10 years old, it wasn't designed for that use so it won't perform as good as a lens that is designed for that kind of work. And none of the Apo Rodagons or Componons (hm or not) are made for high-res 4x magnifications on a digital sensor.

The older Canon MP-E is still a good lens but suffers from a lot of chromatic aberration (mostly red like pretty much all Canon macro lenses) and the WD is pretty much the same for 4x on the MP-E and Laowa (55-45mm) and both of them have to be stopped down. The Laowa does pretty well at 3.5, I shot some stacks with it today at 2.5x and they look very nice.

But if you want to increase the working distance you have to make concessions or spend a ton of money on certain (rare) industrial lenses for special applications. There aren't any consumer or professional lenses around which have both a long working distance and a high resolution at 4x. Naturally you'll still have to focus stack with these lenses and you can't really do that manually at 4x with a big and heavy setup (because it will be big and heavy).

The only other alternative would be to get something like a Mamiya M 50mm 4.5 ULD L, set it to 1:4 and reverse it. That would get you a bit of an awkward system that isn't really easy to set up but once everything is in place it would get you a working distance of 110mm (approx.). But even if this lens is great wide open (which it might be) then you're still dealing with an f4.5 lens at 4x, which means an effective aperture of 22.5 - feasible and will probably still look good. I used the Mejiro 110mm FL0530 at +4x magnification on a 5 micron sensor wide open - and that looks very nice but it's not too detailed: viewtopic.php?p=294255#p294255

However when scaled down it'll still look very nice.

[Allthink]

I don't like to quote myself but:




All these lenses are not made for your desired magnification.
All these lenses have a really small effective aperture at your desired magnification, especially after stopping them down far enough so you can get rid of various aberrations, so none of them will deliver a 100% sharp/highly resolved image, at least not in what we (as macro photographers) would consider as such.

If you need approx. 4x magnification on a high res fullframe sensor you can't get there with these kind of lenses (and you won't be able to use camera/lens movements in a reasonable and practicable manner at that magnification anyway).

What you need are dedicated macro/micro lenses/objectives in a steady, solid setup and you need to focus stack, otherwise you won't get very far.

You can get there with a cheap solution like an AmScope 4x Plan objective, a more expensive Laowa 25mm 2,5-5x, an even more expensive Mitutoyo 5x APO Plan (with a short tube lens) or go all out and get a Qioptiq Mag.x 5x LD Plan Apo. They all have their pros and cons but you need to know the basics behind the whole technique first, otherwise you won't be happy with the results either.

Thanks CrispyBee
So you think even the newer apo rodagon and componon hm still will not deliver good results for my 4x magnification?
Don't you think that Laowa is too wide for product shot?
And do you know how older Canon mp-65 compares to this Laowa in terms of IQ?

Also, the 25mm Laowa means i have to be very close to the subject, and hence will not be able to light it properly.

Well you are simply limited by physics and lens design. Doesn't matter if the lens is brand new or 10 years old, it wasn't designed for that use so it won't perform as good as a lens that is designed for that kind of work. And none of the Apo Rodagons or Componons (hm or not) are made for high-res 4x magnifications on a digital sensor.

The older Canon MP-E is still a good lens but suffers from a lot of chromatic aberration (mostly red like pretty much all Canon macro lenses) and the WD is pretty much the same for 4x on the MP-E and Laowa (55-45mm) and both of them have to be stopped down. The Laowa does pretty well at 3.5, I shot some stacks with it today at 2.5x and they look very nice.

But if you want to increase the working distance you have to make concessions or spend a ton of money on certain (rare) industrial lenses for special applications. There aren't any consumer or professional lenses around which have both a long working distance and a high resolution at 4x. Naturally you'll still have to focus stack with these lenses and you can't really do that manually at 4x with a big and heavy setup (because it will be big and heavy).

The only other alternative would be to get something like a Mamiya M 50mm 4.5 ULD L, set it to 1:4 and reverse it. That would get you a bit of an awkward system that isn't really easy to set up but once everything is in place it would get you a working distance of 110mm (approx.). But even if this lens is great wide open (which it might be) then you're still dealing with an f4.5 lens at 4x, which means an effective aperture of 22.5 - feasible and will probably still look good. I used the Mejiro 110mm FL0530 at +4x magnification on a 5 micron sensor wide open - and that looks very nice but it's not too detailed: viewtopic.php?p=294255#p294255

However when scaled down it'll still look very nice.

Thanks Chris
Your Mejiro lens looks very good in the images you did, very crisp details.
I also saw some lens called Mitakon Zhongyi Creator 1-5x Super Macro 85mm F2.8, and saw some tests of it. Looks like it's an OK lens, for 300$, I wonder if it can do better compared to my rodagon 60 f/4 at 300mm extentsion. At f8 this lens getting nice images and it's on the edge of diffraction, so f8 is probably the best, and while there are CA, the overall contrast and resolution seems good, if compared to any other(basically only Canon mp-65) lenses. So now i'm intrigued if it's a good buying option.
The website of RobertOToole finally is off( but i donwnloaded it to myself some time ago), he mentioned this Mejiro lens, but i didn't find where it can be bought from and what's even the price.
From all the lenses i say, to shoot 6mm contact lens, the Mitakon(second, corrected version) seems very promising, unless some new, similar lenses came out since ~2022, which i'm not aware of, because very rarely(only ine time till now) i have someone asking me to shoot such small subjects.

Is the mentioned Nikon 3X /5x Objective can give a better resolving power than the above mentioned discussed lenses?

[CrispyBee]

Thanks Chris
Your Mejiro lens looks very good in the images you did, very crisp details.
I also saw some lens called Mitakon Zhongyi Creator 1-5x Super Macro 85mm F2.8, and saw some tests of it. Looks like it's an OK lens, for 300$, I wonder if it can do better compared to my rodagon 60 f/4 at 300mm extentsion. At f8 this lens getting nice images and it's on the edge of diffraction, so f8 is probably the best, and while there are CA, the overall contrast and resolution seems good, if compared to any other(basically only Canon mp-65) lenses. So now i'm intrigued if it's a good buying option.
The website of RobertOToole finally is off( but i donwnloaded it to myself some time ago), he mentioned this Mejiro lens, but i didn't find where it can be bought from and what's even the price.
From all the lenses i say, to shoot 6mm contact lens, the Mitakon(second, corrected version) seems very promising, unless some new, similar lenses came out since ~2022, which i'm not aware of, because very rarely(only ine time till now) i have someone asking me to shoot such small subjects.

Is the mentioned Nikon 3X /5x Objective can give a better resolving power than the above mentioned discussed lenses?

Do you understand the concept of effective aperture and what that means for a lens set to f8.0 at 4x magnification?


The Mejiro is an industrial lens and not really available on the 'open' market, when buying it directly from the manufacturer (currently Young Optics who bought up or fused with Mejiro recently) you'll probably have to pay a few thousand dollars/euros (I would expect around 3000-4000? Maybe more.) 'We' got our lenses on eBay from a very nice seller in China, the price was super reasonable and a real bargain but now they're sold out and it'll be very hard to find (if you can find one at all). I wouldn't expect the prices to be as low as they were back then, probably more similar to Schneider Macro-Varons (which are also an option by the way).

MP-E is a good choice, as I said the chromatic aberrations with red fringes are noticeable but not too bad.

The Mitakon 85mm 2.8 is a good lens but not as sharp/contrasty as the Canon - but you have to be careful: there were two versions of this lens. The first one had a larger front lens diameter, which was due to a faulty NA calculation by the manufacturer, resulting in a much softer image with lots of haze and flare - this was resolved shortly after its release in the second version (https://petapixel.com/2020/01/23/back-f ... edesigned/) . So if you purchase this lens make sure you get the later version with the smaller diameter(!), which is far better than the first version.

[Allthink]

Thanks Chris
Your Mejiro lens looks very good in the images you did, very crisp details.
I also saw some lens called Mitakon Zhongyi Creator 1-5x Super Macro 85mm F2.8, and saw some tests of it. Looks like it's an OK lens, for 300$, I wonder if it can do better compared to my rodagon 60 f/4 at 300mm extentsion. At f8 this lens getting nice images and it's on the edge of diffraction, so f8 is probably the best, and while there are CA, the overall contrast and resolution seems good, if compared to any other(basically only Canon mp-65) lenses. So now i'm intrigued if it's a good buying option.
The website of RobertOToole finally is off( but i donwnloaded it to myself some time ago), he mentioned this Mejiro lens, but i didn't find where it can be bought from and what's even the price.
From all the lenses i say, to shoot 6mm contact lens, the Mitakon(second, corrected version) seems very promising, unless some new, similar lenses came out since ~2022, which i'm not aware of, because very rarely(only ine time till now) i have someone asking me to shoot such small subjects.

Is the mentioned Nikon 3X /5x Objective can give a better resolving power than the above mentioned discussed lenses?

Do you understand the concept of effective aperture and what that means for a lens set to f8.0 at 4x magnification?


The Mejiro is an industrial lens and not really available on the 'open' market, when buying it directly from the manufacturer (currently Young Optics who bought up or fused with Mejiro recently) you'll probably have to pay a few thousand dollars/euros (I would expect around 3000-4000? Maybe more.) 'We' got our lenses on eBay from a very nice seller in China, the price was super reasonable and a real bargain but now they're sold out and it'll be very hard to find (if you can find one at all). I wouldn't expect the prices to be as low as they were back then, probably more similar to Schneider Macro-Varons (which are also an option by the way).

MP-E is a good choice, as I said the chromatic aberrations with red fringes are noticeable but not too bad.

The Mitakon 85mm 2.8 is a good lens but not as sharp/contrasty as the Canon - but you have to be careful: there were two versions of this lens. The first one had a larger front lens diameter, which was due to a faulty NA calculation by the manufacturer, resulting in a much softer image with lots of haze and flare - this was resolved shortly after its release in the second version (https://petapixel.com/2020/01/23/back-f ... edesigned/) . So if you purchase this lens make sure you get the later version with the smaller diameter(!), which is far better than the first version.

Thank you
Mitakon 85 1-5x seems promising, they currently out of stock.
Do you know what magnification range SK componon HM45mm/60mm where designed for?

[Allthink]

Anyone knows what are the most modern enlarging lenses that were made by SK/Rodenstock or any other manufacturer?
I want to get 4:1 magnification with the lens