Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

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chris_ma
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Re: Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

Post by chris_ma »

CrispyBee wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2025 4:25 am
The Mejiro is an industrial lens and not really available on the 'open' market, when buying it directly from the manufacturer (currently Young Optics who bought up or fused with Mejiro recently) you'll probably have to pay a few thousand dollars/euros (I would expect around 3000-4000? Maybe more.)
I should start a new topic about this, and will when I have a bit more time, but s a quick note:

I visited the Mejiro Tokyo office when I was in japan last summer and talked to the manager and a lens designer. They were incredibly kind and helpful and we talked for quite a while. They were very surprised about me using the FL0530 and were curious where I got it from since they never sold it to individuals :)

I need to find my notes, but the lens was more affordable then I expected, partly of course to the weak Yen at the moment (certainly less than 4000USD, I think it was more in the area of 2000USD).
He seemed open to the possibility to sell them directly, but probably it would be quite a bit cheaper if there would be a group buy.

If there's a real interest I could contact him and ask specifics.
chris

CrispyBee
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Re: Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

Post by CrispyBee »

Allthink wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 2:55 am
Thank you
Mitakon 85 1-5x seems promising, they currently out of stock.
Do you know what magnification range SK componon HM45mm/60mm where designed for?
They weren't designed for macro-photographic magnifications.
They are not good wide open and you have to stop them down in order to get a somewhat sharp image, at which time they aren't useful for high magnification macro stuff.

I notice I didn't get a response, so I'll ask again:

Do you understand the concept of effective aperture and what that means for a lens set to f8.0 at 4x magnification?

CrispyBee
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Re: Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

Post by CrispyBee »

chris_ma wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 4:38 am
CrispyBee wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2025 4:25 am
The Mejiro is an industrial lens and not really available on the 'open' market, when buying it directly from the manufacturer (currently Young Optics who bought up or fused with Mejiro recently) you'll probably have to pay a few thousand dollars/euros (I would expect around 3000-4000? Maybe more.)
I should start a new topic about this, and will when I have a bit more time, but s a quick note:

I visited the Mejiro Tokyo office when I was in japan last summer and talked to the manager and a lens designer. They were incredibly kind and helpful and we talked for quite a while. They were very surprised about me using the FL0530 and were curious where I got it from since they never sold it to individuals :)

I need to find my notes, but the lens was more affordable then I expected, partly of course to the weak Yen at the moment (certainly less than 4000USD, I think it was more in the area of 2000USD).
He seemed open to the possibility to sell them directly, but probably it would be quite a bit cheaper if there would be a group buy.

If there's a real interest I could contact him and ask specifics.
:shock: Well, well...
I know quite a few people who'd be in, though I'd be more interested in the FL1030 :D I still have two kidneys after all, shouldn't be an issue

lothman
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Re: Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

Post by lothman »

CrispyBee wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:29 am
:shock: Well, well...
I know quite a few people who'd be in, though I'd be more interested in the FL1030 :D I still have two kidneys after all, shouldn't be an issue
What about the new Venus 100mm tilt/shift lens? Its image circle is big enough for a Fuji GFX and Venus/Laowa had stunning macro lenses in the past.

CrispyBee
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Re: Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

Post by CrispyBee »

lothman wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 9:28 am
CrispyBee wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:29 am
:shock: Well, well...
I know quite a few people who'd be in, though I'd be more interested in the FL1030 :D I still have two kidneys after all, shouldn't be an issue
What about the new Venus 100mm tilt/shift lens? Its image circle is big enough for a Fuji GFX and Venus/Laowa had stunning macro lenses in the past.
That one "only" goes to 2x, I already have the 110mm FL 0530 (actually two of them) and they're amazing at f4.0. But it would be interesting to see what the FL1030 can do when combined with pixel shift.

chris_ma
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Re: Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

Post by chris_ma »

CrispyBee wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:29 am
I know quite a few people who'd be in, though I'd be more interested in the FL1030 :D I still have two kidneys after all, shouldn't be an issue
they showed me a FL1030 as well, but apparently that one is built to order while they had quite a few FL0530 in stock at the office, ready to ship.
chris

Allthink
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Re: Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

Post by Allthink »

CrispyBee wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:28 am
Allthink wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 2:55 am
Thank you
Mitakon 85 1-5x seems promising, they currently out of stock.
Do you know what magnification range SK componon HM45mm/60mm where designed for?
They weren't designed for macro-photographic magnifications.
They are not good wide open and you have to stop them down in order to get a somewhat sharp image, at which time they aren't useful for high magnification macro stuff.

I notice I didn't get a response, so I'll ask again:

Do you understand the concept of effective aperture and what that means for a lens set to f8.0 at 4x magnification?
You can explain that concept. Is it the best resolving power of optimal closed aperture for the lens?
Do you know if there a modern lenses that can be used 4:1?
I know there is one from schneider but it's 80mm, no good for me.
Products and portrait photography www.photostudio.co.il
Architecture and interior design photography www.maximdupliy.com

CrispyBee
Posts: 989
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Re: Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

Post by CrispyBee »

Allthink wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 1:36 pm
CrispyBee wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:28 am
Allthink wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 2:55 am
Thank you
Mitakon 85 1-5x seems promising, they currently out of stock.
Do you know what magnification range SK componon HM45mm/60mm where designed for?
They weren't designed for macro-photographic magnifications.
They are not good wide open and you have to stop them down in order to get a somewhat sharp image, at which time they aren't useful for high magnification macro stuff.

I notice I didn't get a response, so I'll ask again:

Do you understand the concept of effective aperture and what that means for a lens set to f8.0 at 4x magnification?
You can explain that concept. Is it the best resolving power of optimal closed aperture for the lens?
Do you know if there a modern lenses that can be used 4:1?
I know there is one from schneider but it's 80mm, no good for me.
See that's the issue: you should (no, you have to) first read up on the basics of macro photography and what certain terms mean and why they're important.
Otherwise this is going to be an endless circle of you asking about lenses (or buying them and get disappointed), that are very much not suited for macro photography, let alone at this scale and for a large sensor.

Generally speaking: Yes. There are quite a few modern lenses that can be used at 4x with varying degrees of quality and price - and there are older ones and stacked ones too:

https://www.closeuphotography.com/stacked-vs-objectives
https://www.closeuphotography.com/4x-le ... 00-dollars
https://www.closeuphotography.com/4x-te ... objectives
https://www.closeuphotography.com/4x-lens-test-part-4
https://www.closeuphotography.com/4x-lens-test-part-3
https://www.closeuphotography.com/laowa ... -lens-test

But you have to learn about the basics first, or this is going nowhere.

enricosavazzi
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Re: Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

Post by enricosavazzi »

I second CrispyBee' post above, and all the links he mentions are relevant. In particular, I would suggest a hard look at the Laowa 25mm f/2.8 2.5-5X Ultra Macro, which is a good lens (not on par with the most exotic lenses, but not far behind), reasonably priced, self-contained, and easier to use in the lab and in the field than custom setups made from numerous parts assembled from many different sources. You can start with a lens like this to get some practical experience in photomacrography (possibly in combination with one of the macro lenses, like Laowa's, that focus from infinity to 2x), and continue to use these lenses for focus stacking on a motorized rail once your experience and needs grow. In addition, both these lenses and a motorized rail will continue to be useful (with adapters) if you should decide in the future to switch camera brands, formats and models. I would also recommend standardizing on a common SLR/DSLR lens mount (for manual lenses I use Nikon F whenever possible) and mount it on the camera of your choice via a suitable adapter (as opposed to buying the same lens already equipped with a non-interchangeable mount, like Sony E, which would not be adaptable to many of the other mirrorless mount types).

I particularly second CrispyBee exortation to learn the basics of photomacrography and the underpinning optical principles. Once equipped with the latter, you will be able to decide for yourself e.g. why the Mitakon 85 1-5x (both original and newer version) is not a good choice, while the Laowa 25mm f/2.8 2.5-5X is much better. Many online lens reviews contain unjustified opinions and subjective statements, and without an understanding of the optical principles you will not be able to make an informed decision on whom to believe.
--ES

g4lab
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Re: Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

Post by g4lab »

Buy yourself a copy of Lester Lefkowitz's Two volume set on Macrophotography

https://www.macrophotographer.net/maacro-books

This is most likely the fastest way to bring yourself up to speed. It may help you to make fewer mistakes.

Allthink
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Re: Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

Post by Allthink »

enricosavazzi wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2025 2:01 pm
I second CrispyBee' post above, and all the links he mentions are relevant. In particular, I would suggest a hard look at the Laowa 25mm f/2.8 2.5-5X Ultra Macro, which is a good lens (not on par with the most exotic lenses, but not far behind), reasonably priced, self-contained, and easier to use in the lab and in the field than custom setups made from numerous parts assembled from many different sources. You can start with a lens like this to get some practical experience in photomacrography (possibly in combination with one of the macro lenses, like Laowa's, that focus from infinity to 2x), and continue to use these lenses for focus stacking on a motorized rail once your experience and needs grow. In addition, both these lenses and a motorized rail will continue to be useful (with adapters) if you should decide in the future to switch camera brands, formats and models. I would also recommend standardizing on a common SLR/DSLR lens mount (for manual lenses I use Nikon F whenever possible) and mount it on the camera of your choice via a suitable adapter (as opposed to buying the same lens already equipped with a non-interchangeable mount, like Sony E, which would not be adaptable to many of the other mirrorless mount types).

I particularly second CrispyBee exortation to learn the basics of photomacrography and the underpinning optical principles. Once equipped with the latter, you will be able to decide for yourself e.g. why the Mitakon 85 1-5x (both original and newer version) is not a good choice, while the Laowa 25mm f/2.8 2.5-5X is much better. Many online lens reviews contain unjustified opinions and subjective statements, and without an understanding of the optical principles you will not be able to make an informed decision on whom to believe.
Thank you enrico
Yes, I got a good impression of reviews about the Laowa 25mm, I just afraid it's not a good focal length for "product photoraphy" per se, even it's only 6mm contact lens. I used to use 50mm and 90mm for product photography, so 25 feels to me like it's weird lens to use. Do you still think it's a good choice for that test?
About Mitakon 85 1-5x, why do you think it's not a good option? (from what i remember sharpness was on good level)
If you could theoretically compare my rodagon 60mm f/4 on 300mm extension rail via this Laowa, would it be better?
Last edited by Allthink on Fri Jan 24, 2025 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Products and portrait photography www.photostudio.co.il
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Allthink
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Re: Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

Post by Allthink »

CrispyBee wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:28 pm
Allthink wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2025 1:36 pm
CrispyBee wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:28 am


They weren't designed for macro-photographic magnifications.
They are not good wide open and you have to stop them down in order to get a somewhat sharp image, at which time they aren't useful for high magnification macro stuff.

I notice I didn't get a response, so I'll ask again:

Do you understand the concept of effective aperture and what that means for a lens set to f8.0 at 4x magnification?
You can explain that concept. Is it the best resolving power of optimal closed aperture for the lens?
Do you know if there a modern lenses that can be used 4:1?
I know there is one from schneider but it's 80mm, no good for me.
See that's the issue: you should (no, you have to) first read up on the basics of macro photography and what certain terms mean and why they're important.
Otherwise this is going to be an endless circle of you asking about lenses (or buying them and get disappointed), that are very much not suited for macro photography, let alone at this scale and for a large sensor.

Generally speaking: Yes. There are quite a few modern lenses that can be used at 4x with varying degrees of quality and price - and there are older ones and stacked ones too:

https://www.closeuphotography.com/stacked-vs-objectives
https://www.closeuphotography.com/4x-le ... 00-dollars
https://www.closeuphotography.com/4x-te ... objectives
https://www.closeuphotography.com/4x-lens-test-part-4
https://www.closeuphotography.com/4x-lens-test-part-3
https://www.closeuphotography.com/laowa ... -lens-test

But you have to learn about the basics first, or this is going nowhere.
thank you
Products and portrait photography www.photostudio.co.il
Architecture and interior design photography www.maximdupliy.com

enricosavazzi
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:41 pm
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Re: Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

Post by enricosavazzi »

Allthink wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2025 9:49 am
Yes, I got a good impression of reviews about the Laowa 25mm, I just afraid it's not a good focal length for "product photoraphy" per se, even it's only 6mm contact lens. I used to use 50mm and 90mm for product photography, so 25 feels to me like it's weird lens to use. Do you still think it's a good choice for that test?
You are probably basing your expectations on how a wideangle at infinity (and pretty much also in close-up photography) produces a characteristic perspective rendering different from a lens of longer focal length. Things are different in photomacrography. For example, at 1x a lens with 25 mm FL has its exit pupil approximately 25 mm farther from the sensor than the same lens focused at infinity (this may be different somewhat for lenses that change focal length, move the position of the exit pupil etc. while focusing). This produces a perspective rendering equivalent to a 50 mm lens focused at infinity. At 4x, the distance to the sensor is 4 times more than at infinity and the perspective rendering is equivalent to a 125 mm lens at infinity. In practice, even a 25 mm lens in photomacrography behaves like a telephoto lens for what concerns perspective rendering.
I reviewed this lens on my web site at https://www.savazzi.net/photography/laowa-25-2-8.html .
About Mitakon 85 1-5x, why do you think it's not a good option? (from what i remember sharpness was on good level)
If you could theoretically compare my rodagon 60mm f/4 on 300mm extension rail via this Laowa, would it be better?
The main problem with the Zhongyi Mitakon 1x-5x is that its NA is simply too low. Things became even worse when the lens was retooled after a first batch of lenses reached the market and buyers quickly discovered that it performed poorly. What Zhongyi does not say is that the retooled lens is no longer an f/2.8 lens (if it ever was) but a nominal f/4 to f/5 lens (effective f/8 at 1x, f/19 at 5x fully open), in spite of the aperture scale still starting at f/2.8, and the lens still being marketed as f/2.8. Note also that the real focal length varies from 71 mm at 1x to 49 mm at 5x. I know because I had one, of the retooled version. I sold it last year. I reviewed it on my web site at https://www.savazzi.net/photography/mit ... ro-85.html .
--ES

Allthink
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Re: Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

Post by Allthink »

enricosavazzi wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2025 8:12 pm
Allthink wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2025 9:49 am
Yes, I got a good impression of reviews about the Laowa 25mm, I just afraid it's not a good focal length for "product photoraphy" per se, even it's only 6mm contact lens. I used to use 50mm and 90mm for product photography, so 25 feels to me like it's weird lens to use. Do you still think it's a good choice for that test?
You are probably basing your expectations on how a wideangle at infinity (and pretty much also in close-up photography) produces a characteristic perspective rendering different from a lens of longer focal length. Things are different in photomacrography. For example, at 1x a lens with 25 mm FL has its exit pupil approximately 25 mm farther from the sensor than the same lens focused at infinity (this may be different somewhat for lenses that change focal length, move the position of the exit pupil etc. while focusing). This produces a perspective rendering equivalent to a 50 mm lens focused at infinity. At 4x, the distance to the sensor is 4 times more than at infinity and the perspective rendering is equivalent to a 125 mm lens at infinity. In practice, even a 25 mm lens in photomacrography behaves like a telephoto lens for what concerns perspective rendering.
I reviewed this lens on my web site at https://www.savazzi.net/photography/laowa-25-2-8.html .
About Mitakon 85 1-5x, why do you think it's not a good option? (from what i remember sharpness was on good level)
If you could theoretically compare my rodagon 60mm f/4 on 300mm extension rail via this Laowa, would it be better?
The main problem with the Zhongyi Mitakon 1x-5x is that its NA is simply too low. Things became even worse when the lens was retooled after a first batch of lenses reached the market and buyers quickly discovered that it performed poorly. What Zhongyi does not say is that the retooled lens is no longer an f/2.8 lens (if it ever was) but a nominal f/4 to f/5 lens (effective f/8 at 1x, f/19 at 5x fully open), in spite of the aperture scale still starting at f/2.8, and the lens still being marketed as f/2.8. Note also that the real focal length varies from 71 mm at 1x to 49 mm at 5x. I know because I had one, of the retooled version. I sold it last year. I reviewed it on my web site at https://www.savazzi.net/photography/mit ... ro-85.html .
Thank you. Reading your reviews.
If I summarize, the higher-effective f-stop of Mitakon 85 is the reason to skip the lens, even if it gives good result, right? If i have 1200w/s flashes that will overcome higher f-stip, will then it can be a good lens?
Do you think the Laowa 25mm(effective 125mm at 4x) is the best option currently on the market, or there is some modern digital copal lens(~60mm f.l.) that can perform better?
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Allthink
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Re: Suggested Macro lenses for tabletop

Post by Allthink »

I performed some tests today with FUJI ex 50mm f2.8 and Rodagon 60mm f4 and surprisingly(even test charts say another story) the old Rodagon(not apo) was much better, still not good enough at corners.
Products and portrait photography www.photostudio.co.il
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