Need help with macro equipment setup

Have questions about the equipment used for macro- or micro- photography? Post those questions in this forum.

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dorcus
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Need help with macro equipment setup

Post by dorcus »

https://petapixel.com/2022/06/11/how-to ... otography/
Screen Shot 2022-10-23 at 2.07.13 AM.png
I'm new to macro photography but I've been researching for a while cause I start taking pics of insect when I was 13. Well, I have a problem with selecting equipment since I have large beetles. If they were small, then I can just follow what others are buying but there are two issues that I'm seeing and concerning. I may find something else if that stand doesn't work. My main goal is similar to Levon Biss's work.
5355237049_4d1850e68d_z.jpg
The first problem is the size of insect. If I shoot a small one, it wouldn't be a problem but I have rhino and stag beetles which is big. In order to shoot them with Sigma 105mm macro, I need a long distance. Not too long tho. The reason why I need a rail is because keeping horizontal and balance is extremely difficult without a single rail or plate. Using two tripod for camera and specimen already proves that it's difficult to shoot.

The second problem is the background. Because of the distance between insect and XY stage, I may see the background instead of pure black. I can use photoshop to isolate it but wouldn't it be better if the background is already black? Just like Levon Biss's work. Otherwise, I need something to control the stage's height and position very precisely but I dont know which item can do that while it does not blocked by XY stage.

With those issues in mind, how do you think about the DIY stand to start with?

rjlittlefield
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Re: Need help with macro equipment setup

Post by rjlittlefield »

dorcus, welcome to the forum!

You wrote "similar to Levon Biss's work".

It would help us to know more about what "similar" means.

The work of Levon Biss that I know is done with small subjects, shooting with microscope objectives and using a stack-and-stitch technique to assemble high resolution large images. Almost none of the details of his process are appropriate for beetles of the size that you've shown us.

To give good recommendations, what we really need to know is how large an area on your subject you want to have covered by your final image, and how large you want that image to be in terms of pixel counts.

--Rik

dorcus
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Location: NY

Re: Need help with macro equipment setup

Post by dorcus »

rjlittlefield wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 1:54 pm
dorcus, welcome to the forum!

You wrote "similar to Levon Biss's work".

It would help us to know more about what "similar" means.

The work of Levon Biss that I know is done with small subjects, shooting with microscope objectives and using a stack-and-stitch technique to assemble high resolution large images. Almost none of the details of his process are appropriate for beetles of the size that you've shown us.

To give good recommendations, what we really need to know is how large an area on your subject you want to have covered by your final image, and how large you want that image to be in terms of pixel counts.

--Rik
images-2.jpeg
Something like this with black or white background. The problem with DIY stand I mentioned above is that the XY stage will block the background so there is no way I can create black or white background for full body shot. I can try Levon Biss's workflow but if I want to work with large beetles, I need to figure out another way to solve that problem.

rjlittlefield
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Re: Need help with macro equipment setup

Post by rjlittlefield »

Something like this with black or white background.
Ah! So then, a subject isolated against a black background?

For that problem I suggest to just buy a piece of black felt, drape it over the platform that holds the subject, and mount the subject on a pin that goes through the felt.

By the way, for a subject as large as your beetle, it is better to not step focus by changing the lens-to-subject distance using a focus rail. That approach will introduce changes in viewpoint that may degrade the stacked result. Instead, it is better to either step focus "by ring", or by rear bellows movement that leaves the lens in one place and changes the lens-to-camera distance. More information on all these points can be read at https://zerenesystems.com/cms/stacker/docs/troubleshooting/ringversusrail .

If you ever do get to the point of wanting to use stack-and-stitch, then I suggest to start by reading this forum's FAQ on that subject: What is "stack-and-stitch", and how can I do it?

--Rik

dorcus
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Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:47 pm
Location: NY

Re: Need help with macro equipment setup

Post by dorcus »

rjlittlefield wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 3:00 pm
Something like this with black or white background.
Ah! So then, a subject isolated against a black background?

For that problem I suggest to just buy a piece of black felt, drape it over the platform that holds the subject, and mount the subject on a pin that goes through the felt.

By the way, for a subject as large as your beetle, it is better to not step focus by changing the lens-to-subject distance using a focus rail. That approach will introduce changes in viewpoint that may degrade the stacked result. Instead, it is better to either step focus "by ring", or by rear bellows movement that leaves the lens in one place and changes the lens-to-camera distance. More information on all these points can be read at https://zerenesystems.com/cms/stacker/docs/troubleshooting/ringversusrail .

If you ever do get to the point of wanting to use stack-and-stitch, then I suggest to start by reading this forum's FAQ on that subject: What is "stack-and-stitch", and how can I do it?

--Rik


The main concern I have is positioning both camera and specimen in precision way. With a large beetle, the regular stand or macro setup wont work unless I have a longer distance. Even with focus by ring, I still need to control a large specimen precisely. Using a macro stand is a good way to start and that's why I'm interested in DIY stand. I would not get a focus rail yet base on your advice but controlling the camera and specimen is all I concern. I have a tripod with a geared head but still, I need something to control a specimen precisely if I dont use a rail and stand.

http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=1570.0
I saw Thor precision head but that's kinda expensive. WeMacro also has XYR head but not sure if it can hold a large specimen. The link I attached might be the one I'm looking for but that might be too expensive. Any suggestion?

Chris S.
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Re: Need help with macro equipment setup

Post by Chris S. »

Dorcus,

Welcome aboard! :D

For a large beetle such as you show, and a 105mm macro lens, I wouldn't use my macro rig, but my copy stand. A quick look on eBay shows a lot of nice copy stands, some at quite decent prices. (Note that there is a wide range of sturdiness among copy stands.)

With a copy stand you would shoot vertically, with the camera aimed downward. In a version of what Rik suggested, you could place black velvet-like material on the base of the copy stand, and mount your beetle somewhat above the base, with the mount hidden beneath the beetle. The point of creating space between your subject and background is that you can then light the subject while blocking most light from falling on your background. And with your large subjects and magnification of 1:1 or less, you should be fine in posing your subjects by hand, without any need for micrometer or geared movement.

To get the sort of look Levon Biss is known for, I'd note this quote: "Most insects were photographed in about 30 sections, each section lit differently with strobe lights to accentuate the microsculpture of that particular area of the body." The signature element in Biss' work is that he lights different sections of his subjects in different ways, avoiding specular highlights in each section and bringing out the shape and texture of each section. (To my eye, this is obvious when looking at his images--in many cases, no single lighting arrangement could produce the modeling that is evident.) Most people who do stack and stitch do so to get very high megapixel composite images. If Biss stitches, part of the reason is that he also wants to light his subjects feature-by-feature. If you don't need very-high-megapixel images, but do want similar lighting, you would not need to stack and stitch. You could instead do multiple stacks without moving either your camera or subject, while changing your lighting arrangement between stacks. Then process each stack individually, and combine these stacks in Photoshop (or other pixel-editor) by layering and masking.

--Chris S.

dorcus
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Location: NY

Re: Need help with macro equipment setup

Post by dorcus »

Chris S. wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 5:18 pm
Dorcus,

Welcome aboard! :D

For a large beetle such as you show, and a 105mm macro lens, I wouldn't use my macro rig, but my copy stand. A quick look on eBay shows a lot of nice copy stands, some at quite decent prices. (Note that there is a wide range of sturdiness among copy stands.)

With a copy stand you would shoot vertically, with the camera aimed downward. In a version of what Rik suggested, you could place black velvet-like material on the base of the copy stand, and mount your beetle somewhat above the base, with the mount hidden beneath the beetle. The point of creating space between your subject and background is that you can then light the subject while blocking most light from falling on your background. And with your large subjects and magnification of 1:1 or less, you should be fine in posing your subjects by hand, without any need for micrometer or geared movement.

To get the sort of look Levon Biss is known for, I'd note this quote: "Most insects were photographed in about 30 sections, each section lit differently with strobe lights to accentuate the microsculpture of that particular area of the body." The signature element in Biss' work is that he lights different sections of his subjects in different ways, avoiding specular highlights in each section and bringing out the shape and texture of each section. (To my eye, this is obvious when looking at his images--in many cases, no single lighting arrangement could produce the modeling that is evident.) Most people who do stack and stitch do so to get very high megapixel composite images. If Biss stitches, part of the reason is that he also wants to light his subjects feature-by-feature. If you don't need very-high-megapixel images, but do want similar lighting, you would not need to stack and stitch. You could instead do multiple stacks without moving either your camera or subject, while changing your lighting arrangement between stacks. Then process each stack individually, and combine these stacks in Photoshop (or other pixel-editor) by layering and masking.

--Chris S.
I see

https://petapixel.com/2022/06/11/how-to ... otography/
So you dont want me to buy DIY stand instead of copy stand? I dont need to buy a focus rail and XY stage for now until I feel something is not right.

Chris S.
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Re: Need help with macro equipment setup

Post by Chris S. »

dorcus wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 5:51 pm
I see

https://petapixel.com/2022/06/11/how-to ... otography/
So you don't want me to buy DIY stand instead of copy stand? I don't need to buy a focus rail and XY stage for now until I feel something is not right.
I think it boils down to what set of tradeoffs you prefer to deal with. A good copy stand will give you more vertical travel than David Garnick's T-Rex, and will give you a larger base area to work with. The T-Rex, on the other hand, is modular and should be easy to modify or reconfigure. You don't need a focus rail or XY-stage for the large beetles you are currently looking to photograph, but if you eventually move to smaller subjects, it might be easier, and--maybe--more stable, to mount a focus rail on a T-Rex than on a copy stand. But what you're doing now is pretty much what copy stands were built to do, and a good one does it very well. For example, to move the camera up or down on a copy stand, you'd typically just loosen a locking knob, turn a crank, then re-tighten the knob.

As you're looking to get visual results similar to Levon Biss', you'll be spending most of your working time adjusting light. This deserves emphasis: Levon Biss' most important ingredient is light, not hardware.

As such, I think you'll want very robust capability to place and modify multiple light sources with precision. I myself am not drawn to mounting the light sources on the macro rig itself, as Garnick has done with the two articulating arms on the T-Rex. This said, the approach has merit at low magnifications, where slight vibrations created while adjusting the arms will not alter camera/subject alignment much, as they might at high magnifications. But I think you'll want lots of flexibility in your lighting--probably more than two lights sources, constrained to placement on the vertical stand, can provide.

You might consider making something like the Bratcam Lighting Stage, which I've been using for twelve years. With this stage, I use up to twelve light sources, plus various diffusers, reflecters, gobo's, and flags (for shaping, softening, or blocking light). In that post, I showed speedlights in use, but I've since given up the use of flash in the macro studio, and now use continuous light. (Not that I necessarily recommend you do so--again, it's a case of what set of tradeoffs you prefer to work with. Ask if you want more information.)

Since I like having my lighting stage physically isolated from the macro rig, the smaller base of the T-Rex seems attractive for this particular element. But if I were doing what you are doing, I'd want a taller vertical column. To do this safely, I'd likely add mass to the base.

One item that bugs me with the T-Rex is its reliance on one Arca-Swiss style double clamp for holding the camera on a vertical Arca-Swiss style rail. If the photographer makes no mistakes, this can work fine. But if you loosen the supporting knob while not holding up the camera with your other hand, your camera and lens could fall--potentially crushing your subject and breaking your lens, camera, or both. Since I often work late into the night, I know that sometimes I'll be tired, bored, in a hurry, or otherwise not at my best. (Particularly as the images you want to make may require thousands of button presses.) So if it were me, I'd add something to protect me from myself. A second Arca-Swiss style bracket, placed underneath the main one, could act as a safety stop. I'd also implement a protocol to ALWAYS support the camera with one hand, any time I loosen the knob that holds the camera in place vertically.

Best,

--Chris S.

dorcus
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Location: NY

Re: Need help with macro equipment setup

Post by dorcus »

Chris S. wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 8:49 pm
dorcus wrote:
Sun Oct 23, 2022 5:51 pm
I see

https://petapixel.com/2022/06/11/how-to ... otography/
So you don't want me to buy DIY stand instead of copy stand? I don't need to buy a focus rail and XY stage for now until I feel something is not right.
I think it boils down to what set of tradeoffs you prefer to deal with. A good copy stand will give you more vertical travel than David Garnick's T-Rex, and will give you a larger base area to work with. The T-Rex, on the other hand, is modular and should be easy to modify or reconfigure. You don't need a focus rail or XY-stage for the large beetles you are currently looking to photograph, but if you eventually move to smaller subjects, it might be easier, and--maybe--more stable, to mount a focus rail on a T-Rex than on a copy stand. But what you're doing now is pretty much what copy stands were built to do, and a good one does it very well. For example, to move the camera up or down on a copy stand, you'd typically just loosen a locking knob, turn a crank, then re-tighten the knob.

As you're looking to get visual results similar to Levon Biss', you'll be spending most of your working time adjusting light. This deserves emphasis: Levon Biss' most important ingredient is light, not hardware.

As such, I think you'll want very robust capability to place and modify multiple light sources with precision. I myself am not drawn to mounting the light sources on the macro rig itself, as Garnick has done with the two articulating arms on the T-Rex. This said, the approach has merit at low magnifications, where slight vibrations created while adjusting the arms will not alter camera/subject alignment much, as they might at high magnifications. But I think you'll want lots of flexibility in your lighting--probably more than two lights sources, constrained to placement on the vertical stand, can provide.

You might consider making something like the Bratcam Lighting Stage, which I've been using for twelve years. With this stage, I use up to twelve light sources, plus various diffusers, reflecters, gobo's, and flags (for shaping, softening, or blocking light). In that post, I showed speedlights in use, but I've since given up the use of flash in the macro studio, and now use continuous light. (Not that I necessarily recommend you do so--again, it's a case of what set of tradeoffs you prefer to work with. Ask if you want more information.)

Since I like having my lighting stage physically isolated from the macro rig, the smaller base of the T-Rex seems attractive for this particular element. But if I were doing what you are doing, I'd want a taller vertical column. To do this safely, I'd likely add mass to the base.

One item that bugs me with the T-Rex is its reliance on one Arca-Swiss style double clamp for holding the camera on a vertical Arca-Swiss style rail. If the photographer makes no mistakes, this can work fine. But if you loosen the supporting knob while not holding up the camera with your other hand, your camera and lens could fall--potentially crushing your subject and breaking your lens, camera, or both. Since I often work late into the night, I know that sometimes I'll be tired, bored, in a hurry, or otherwise not at my best. (Particularly as the images you want to make may require thousands of button presses.) So if it were me, I'd add something to protect me from myself. A second Arca-Swiss style bracket, placed underneath the main one, could act as a safety stop. I'd also implement a protocol to ALWAYS support the camera with one hand, any time I loosen the knob that holds the camera in place vertically.

Best,

--Chris S.
Ok, let me stick with my current equipment and see how it goes. At least I need something to hold my specimen on my light stand for sure.

For T-Rex, I can just assemble for horizontal cause I wouldn't use a vertical mode for all purpose anyway.

ray_parkhurst
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Re: Need help with macro equipment setup

Post by ray_parkhurst »

For a beetle of that size, IMO a regular copy stand (or even an inverted tripod) with a 55mm Micro-Nikkor would do a wonderful job and give a reasonable working distance. I'd set him on a black velvet background. I recommend ProtoStar for its low reflectance and durability.

colohank
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Re: Need help with macro equipment setup

Post by colohank »

Is it really necessary to use a precise XY stage on a copy stand for such large subjects? If I were in your shoes, and if a I wanted a blank (white or black or colored) background, I'd be tempted to try shooting horizontally against a relatively open background, one that isn't so close to the subject. Maybe try to mount the subject on a stiff horizontal rod or pipe from behind, such that the mount is obscured by the subject. In photography, I don't think of black as a color. Rather, I think of it as the absence of light. Accordingly, I rely upon the law of inverse squares to render a black background. A piece of black velvet might be useful to hide whatever is holding the horizontal mounting rod, but only at a sufficient distance behind the subject that it's not illuminated by subject lighting. For a lighter background, consider a piece of rigid white foamboard illuminated separately by a flash with a colored gel or perhaps an LED panel that can be adjusted to emit a variety of colors.

The background for this cameo was actually a white garage door. It was so far behind the closely illuminated subject, and so poorly illuminated itself, that it appears black.

colohank
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Re: Need help with macro equipment setup

Post by colohank »

Oops.
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