Mirrorless system camera for LED lighting?

Have questions about the equipment used for macro- or micro- photography? Post those questions in this forum.

Moderators: rjlittlefield, ChrisR, Chris S., Pau

Enoplometopus
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:48 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Mirrorless system camera for LED lighting?

Post by Enoplometopus »

Hi all,

up to now I just did focus stacking with 2 to 4 flash units (full format Canon, Novoflex castel micro, from 1:1 until 20:1). Good results, but the mignons keep failing mid of the series. Even new rechargable mignons of good quality. I also have two 60 Watt LED studio lights, but with those I rarely had useable results in focus stacking, especially with high magnification. Everything turns out totally unsharp. Others do have good results, and I thought it might be because they mostly use APS sensor systems where the shutter is smaller and creates less vibrations. Now I am toying around with the idea of using a mirrorless camera like Canon EOS R and operate it with the electronic shutter. No mass movement, no vibrations. Maybe I'll even use the continuous operating mode of the Novoflex micro castel that does not do stop and go (actually Novoflex says this mode has been created for LED lighting). Does anyone have experience with full format mirrorless cameras used with electronic shutter in LED lighting, maybe even with the camera moving in continuous mode?

Best regards,

Daniel
Best regards,

Daniel Knop/Enoplometopus
My website:www.knop.de
Instagram: danielknop10

Scarodactyl
Posts: 1616
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:26 am

Re: Mirrorless system camera for LED lighting?

Post by Scarodactyl »

Many dslrs have efcs or silent mode. These are essential for continuous light shooting. Aps-c shutters will slap pretty hard too. Mirrorless isn't necessary for this though it's not a bad idea either.

colohank
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:07 pm
Location: Fruita, Colorado, USA

Re: Mirrorless system camera for LED lighting?

Post by colohank »

Doesn't your Canon camera have a mirror lock-up mode? If it does, then each exposure would require two actuations of the shutter button -- the first to raise the mirror and, after a suitable pause to allow vibrations to damp, a second actuation to trip the shutter. Shooting in Live View would yield the same benefit. I frequently use constant LED lighting (either large panels using AC current or more compact Litemons/Godox 6R units with built-in lithium batteries) and get the same results as I do with flash. At full power, and with a full charge, the Litemons/Godox units run for about two hours. In mirror-up mode, I program StackShot to trip the shutter two seconds after the mirror rises, ample time for mirror vibrations to damp. If using a manual focus rail, I use a wireless remote control to preclude any vibration or movement which might resulting from manual shutter actuation.

Pau
Site Admin
Posts: 6038
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:57 am
Location: Valencia, Spain

Re: Mirrorless system camera for LED lighting?

Post by Pau »

Enoplometopus wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:17 am
full format Canon
Wich one? All FF Canon I know exepted the first 5D and maybe some early 1Ds have "silent mode". If you have it activated and use live view and not flash you have EFSC (Electronic First Shutter Courtain), excellent for avoiding shutter induced vibration.
Pau

Enoplometopus
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:48 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Mirrorless system camera for LED lighting?

Post by Enoplometopus »

@Pau: That's what I just tried yesterday, and I was surprised about the result. I use an EOS 5D MkIV and sometimes an EOS 5DSR. Thanks for the explanation, that is exactly what I suspected based on the shutter noise. However, I'm currently toying with the idea of swapping the 5D Mk IV for an EOS R, because then I won't have any mechanical wear in the shutter either.
Best regards,

Daniel Knop/Enoplometopus
My website:www.knop.de
Instagram: danielknop10

J_Rogers
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:29 pm
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Mirrorless system camera for LED lighting?

Post by J_Rogers »

Enoplometopus wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:17 am
Maybe I'll even use the continuous operating mode of the Novoflex micro castel that does not do stop and go (actually Novoflex says this mode has been created for LED lighting). Does anyone have experience with full format mirrorless cameras used with electronic shutter in LED lighting, maybe even with the camera moving in continuous mode?
While I do not have a full frame mirrorless camera, I do have the equipment for high precision continuous movement. So I put together a test to give you a better idea of what to expect, or lack thereof.

Both images were taken on a Nikon D780 in crop mode and using a Nikon MM10x objective. ISO 100 for both images. The first image is taken at 1/200th using live view silent mode & transmitted lighting using a continuous coherent source at ~1000 lumens. The slow shutter speed was chosen to match what I can do with a speed light light. The second image is taken at 1/200th regular shooting mode & a single speed light as the transmitted light source at the same distance, at 1/128th power.

I broke out my Newport XMS stage (I use predominantly for lasers, not photography) which is a direct drive permanent magnet linear servo. Pitch, yaw, and roll errors are about an arcsecond or less. I programmed a continuous motion path of 900nm over the course of 800ms. This accounts for the time to actually take the picture, which comes out to traveling roughly 1 micron every second.

Continuous lighting with constant movement. 100% center crop. Raw from camera.
10x-movement-test-1.jpg
Flash with constant movement. 100% center crop. Raw from camera.
10x-movement-test-2.jpg
Key takeaway points: the brightness difference is immense. This is by no means an exhaustive test showing the differences or whether or not it is possible to achieve. Simply, to get a high enough shutter speed to freeze frame you will need a lot of light. Whatever fuzziness you see is pure motion blur, no weird directional movements - which is to be expected on a piece of equipment that costs 6-7x what the Novoflex does. The only reason I bring up cost difference is to highlight the idea of compensation. Meaning at lower magnification it is not likely to play a role in blur. On the other hand, at higher magnifications, you will need compensate for more than pure straight line blur. i.e. vibrations will become detrimental.

- I just realized proofing my post, that using a telecentric objective was not the best choice for showing how much blur is induced with continuous movement. Since objects out of focus will blur symmetrically, giving the impression of increased DOF. But hopefully it gives you an idea.

AlP
Posts: 323
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:48 pm
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Mirrorless system camera for LED lighting?

Post by AlP »

Enoplometopus wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:17 am
but the mignons keep failing mid of the series. Even new rechargable mignons of good quality.
You may want to look at the Godox PB960 for flash juice, or Quantum and Lumedyne. I've been using the PB960's for several months and couldn't be happier considering their price point.

Enoplometopus
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:48 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Mirrorless system camera for LED lighting?

Post by Enoplometopus »

@AIP: Thanks for the demonstration. I have checked the using instruction of the Novoflex Castel Micro again and saw that I mistakingly remembered it wrong: They recommend the continuous mode for flash or for very short shutter speed in continuous light. And based on the performance of my LED lights, I will probably need much longer shutter speed. So my best way will be to use the conventional stop and go mode with LEDs.
Best regards,

Daniel Knop/Enoplometopus
My website:www.knop.de
Instagram: danielknop10

Enoplometopus
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:48 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Mirrorless system camera for LED lighting?

Post by Enoplometopus »

Sorry, the reply was meant for J_Rogers... ;-)
Best regards,

Daniel Knop/Enoplometopus
My website:www.knop.de
Instagram: danielknop10

Enoplometopus
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:48 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Mirrorless system camera for LED lighting?

Post by Enoplometopus »

@AIP: Thanks for the hint, I'll keep that in mind.
Best regards,

Daniel Knop/Enoplometopus
My website:www.knop.de
Instagram: danielknop10

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic