lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

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pu5z3k
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lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

Post by pu5z3k »

Hi,
I intend to buy a canon r6, unfortunately after reading many descriptions with technical data, I came across information that it has a built-in AA filter (to prevent moire'a effect)
My question is if anyone has experience with this even with another camera that has this filter built in.
How strongly does this affect the quality / detail of the photos?

Thanks in advance for your answers

lothman
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Re: lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

Post by lothman »

here you can play around and see the R5 compared to other models.
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-r6-review/5

blekenbleu
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Re: lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

Post by blekenbleu »

Most (and nearly all Canon) digital cameras have some amount of anti-aliasing,
but antialiasing must be stronger for those with video recording modes
that employ so-called line-skipping. Many users object to cameras
using only 1080 or 2160 lines cropped out of the center of 20+ megapixel sensors.
Proper resampling of the uncropped sensor wants simultaneous access to 5 or so sensor lines,
which exceeds real time high frame rate high resolution processing capability of most camera electronics.
Metaphot, Optiphot 1, 66; AO 10, 120, and EPIStar 2571
https://blekenbleu.github.io/microscope

chris_ma
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Re: lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

Post by chris_ma »

blekenbleu wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 1:14 pm
Most (and nearly all Canon) digital cameras have some amount of anti-aliasing,
but antialiasing must be stronger for those with video recording modes
that employ so-called line-skipping. Many users object to cameras
using only 1080 or 2160 lines cropped out of the center of 20+ megapixel sensors.
Proper resampling of the uncropped sensor wants simultaneous access to 5 or so sensor lines,
which exceeds real time high frame rate high resolution processing capability of most camera electronics.
afaik most recent photo cameras don't employ line skipping anymore, but do full sensor readout and downsampling to 4K, so video is very clean.

you can see examples further down on the video comparison of the same scene:
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-r6-review/8

the M6 MKII still seems to do line skipping, but the R6 is impressive (as are most cameras over 1500USD in the last 2 years)
chris

pu5z3k
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Re: lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

Post by pu5z3k »

so the anti - aliasing filter makes impact of sharpness ?
it will be used only for macrophotography stacking.

blekenbleu
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Re: lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

Post by blekenbleu »

pu5z3k wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:14 pm
so the anti - aliasing filter makes impact of sharpness ?
it will be used only for macrophotography stacking.
Practically, modern digital cameras have resolution
so much greater than necessary to resolve hobbyist light microscope images
that antialiasing is not an issue for sharpness.

@chris_ma is correct about the Canon R6 (and R3),
but Canon R7, R5 and others seemingly still employ stronger anti-aliasing
than is necessary for full resolution captures
in order to support some video modes by subsampling.
Metaphot, Optiphot 1, 66; AO 10, 120, and EPIStar 2571
https://blekenbleu.github.io/microscope

rjlittlefield
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Re: lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

Post by rjlittlefield »

pu5z3k wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:44 am
I intend to buy a canon r6, unfortunately after reading many descriptions with technical data, I came across information that it has a built-in AA filter (to prevent moire'a effect)
My question is if anyone has experience with this even with another camera that has this filter built in.
How strongly does this affect the quality / detail of the photos?
My primary cameras have always been Canon with AA filters. They work fine.

Certainly the AA filter must soften the image that is presented to the sensor. But there are many other sources of softening and all of them, including AA, can be corrected to a large degree with digital sharpening. I am confident that if the R6 were available without an AA filter, and you shot the two cameras side by side and then processed each image optimally for the camera that shot it, you would not see a compelling difference.

In any case, if you have concerns about sharpness, the best approach is to download sample images from review sites and see if they are sharp enough to meet your needs. Worrying about an AA filter, just because the camera has one, is giving that one aspect too much attention.

For my own kit, a bigger concern with the R6 would be that it is full frame with only 20 megapixels. That would not be a good match to the lenses that I use.

But if it is a good match to your lenses, then I expect you will be happy with the R6.

--Rik

chris_ma
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Re: lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

Post by chris_ma »

I agree with Rik, if you need more detail and have good lenses that cover full frame, then getting a camera with higher resolution will make a bigger difference then the question of anti-aliasing filters.

if you're on a tight budget, the Sony A7rII can be found as a bargain on the used market.
chris

pu5z3k
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Re: lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

Post by pu5z3k »

I wanted to find out on my own skin and became the owner of om-1 and r6.

Tests below ... to my surprise, the Canon is sharper ...

full resolution download from flickr

olympus:
Imageolympus by Radoslaw, on Flickr

canon:
Imagecanon by Radoslaw, on Flickr

Scarodactyl
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Re: lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

Post by Scarodactyl »

If you don't mind, what are the parameters of the test? They don't look too directly comparable from my first impression.

pu5z3k
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Location: poland

Re: lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

Post by pu5z3k »

sure You are right because on olympus i was using:
75-300 lens set at 200mm and mitutoyo 5x

on canon was:
70-200 2.8 - set at 200mm and mitutoyo 10x

Scarodactyl
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Re: lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

Post by Scarodactyl »

OK, so approximately equal fields of view in the final image, but one is using an objective with twice the resolution? I don't think any conclusion about the sensor can be drawn from a test like that, no offense.

pu5z3k
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Re: lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

Post by pu5z3k »

ok, thats sounds fair - i am newbie regarding to microscope lenses.
And i just focus on equal magnification ratio

Scarodactyl
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Re: lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

Post by Scarodactyl »

You really need to keep all your variables the same between one sensor and the other to get a meaningful comparison. That would mean using a tube lens that can be adapted onto either camera and the same objective as well as the same lighting and framing on the subject.
Even then it isn't easy since lota of processing happens automatically to make the aa filter's effects less obvious. You can usually turn that off but maybe not all of it (?). And of course it isn't clear that you'd want to turn it off since you'd want to compare how they would be in use. There have been tests here in the past but while they were exceptionally well controlled the processing issue remained iirc.

chris_ma
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Re: lower quallity on Canon R6 - because of AA filter ?

Post by chris_ma »

to me comparing a full frame sensor to a M43 is bound to be problematic since the optics optimised for one might not be the best choice to the other.

personally I'd first decide on sensor size/lenses combo, and then on a specific camera model that has the features I'd like on that format.

anti-alias filter or not would be pretty far down on the list though.
chris

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