electronic shutter and flash

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ap
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:33 pm

electronic shutter and flash

Post by ap »

hi everyone,
i recently purchased a canon m6m2 and want to use it for macro stacking with the electronic shutter. unfortunately this doesnt allow flash which i use for my stacks. i have the wemacro rail setup. i know that MJKZZ sells an ir controller that allows independent activation of shutter and flash so that i could set my flash to midexposure and still use the electronic shutter.
can i use the wemacro rail with this controller? what modifications and other parts will i need?
how would i determine step length etc?
thank you, much appreciated as always!
andy

Macro_Cosmos
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Re: electronic shutter and flash

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

1. Step length depends on your objective and what you want.
2. Depending on your wemacro controller model, you can pull two leads out from the relay switch. Some newer models no longer use a relay, making it "quiet". These two leads output around 3.3V, think of it as on/off (square wave), so using a correct buck/boost converter, you can use it to trigger the flash. Look up on how to do this and the voltage needed. You void the warranty of course.
A small hole was drilled into the controller for the two leads to pop out. I intend to replace it with a 2.5mm audio jack or a Hirose clone.
I used the leads and a tiny boost converter to make the signal around 5.5V, allowing me to trigger my camera which uses a 5V TTL signal for shutter activation. I can simultaneously use the proper trigger for my Z6, so the idea is the same -- you will be using a flash instead of another camera.

Oh, to increase its performance, I replaced the boring old red LED with an RGB one. Why would I do that? Why not?

klevin
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Re: electronic shutter and flash

Post by klevin »

I've been stacking with the m6ii for several years now. Not sure why you'd want to use flash, and it's tricky with electronic shutter anyway - this has been discussed extensively elsewhere.

I use a tripod for my stacks, and have had great results shooting static subjects outdoors (mushrooms) at shutter speeds as slow as 1/4 second - mushrooms tend to grow in darker woods. Available light avoids problems with shadows too.

Step size is a tricky issue. Early on I did some experimenting using a focus wedge, and found that the actual step size varied with lens, f stop and magnification. You can also walk through a series of focus steps looking at the zone of focus to make sure you have enough overlap - better to have too much than too little.

For most of my shooting, I've settled on f5.6 and step 3 with the Canon 100mm L macro.

Adalbert
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Re: electronic shutter and flash

Post by Adalbert »

Hi Andy,
You would need something like that:
delay.jpg
For long exposure times, the flash can be fired in the middle.
But for short times, the delay must be determined and set via the timer.
Best, ADi

ap
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Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:33 pm

Re: electronic shutter and flash

Post by ap »

thank you for all your replies - much appreciated!
these are the issues puzzling me:
1. what are the advantages of a fully electronic shutter vs efcs for focus stacking WITH FLASH in terms of image quality? and vs mechanical?
2. is 'mid-curtain' flash better than rear curtain flash when the latter option exists?

lothman
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Location: Stuttgart/Germany

Re: electronic shutter and flash

Post by lothman »

ap wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:32 pm
thank you for all your replies - much appreciated!
these are the issues puzzling me:
1. what are the advantages of a fully electronic shutter vs efcs for focus stacking WITH FLASH in terms of image quality? and vs mechanical?
2. is 'mid-curtain' flash better than rear curtain flash when the latter option exists?
1) the shutter can cause vibrations what can lead to blurr with ambient light. If your flash is way brighter than ambient light and/or the vibrations are weak and/or your delays are big enough that vibrations can fade out, then you will not notice any difference

2) when there are no moving subjects in your pictures (which could lead to motion blur due to long exposure) than there is no difference.

ap
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Re: electronic shutter and flash

Post by ap »

thank you for info lothman!
wrt #2 - if one is using rear curtain flash, can the vibrations from the rear curtain affect the image, or is ALL of the image capture complete before the rear curtain starts moving?
thx andy

lothman
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Re: electronic shutter and flash

Post by lothman »

Adalbert wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:20 pm
For long exposure times, the flash can be fired in the middle.
But for short times, the delay must be determined and set via the timer.
I suppose with electronic shutter the exposure must be longer than the readout speed for a single frame otherwise only parts of the picture are read while beeing illuminated with the flash, others keep dark. And as far as I'm informed the readout speed is in the range of 1/30 second on many cameras. That is probably the reason why the camera manufacturers disable flash on electronic shutter because this can lead to problems with higher shutter speeds (you would need HSS-flash).

lothman
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Re: electronic shutter and flash

Post by lothman »

ap wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:00 am
thank you for info lothman!
wrt #2 - if one is using rear curtain flash, can the vibrations from the rear curtain affect the image, or is ALL of the image capture complete before the rear curtain starts moving?
thx andy
I think with rear curtain shutter vibrations can only be a problem for the next picture when your setup is still swinging from the frame before, but with a delay from 1-2 seconds between pictures those small vibrations should have been disappeared. Otherwise I agree to "ALL of the image capture complete before the rear curtain starts moving".

Adalbert
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Re: electronic shutter and flash

Post by Adalbert »

Hi guys,
Yes, I have been using fully electronic shutter and flashes for many years.
So I have taken over 200 thousand pictures with my M6M2 up to now, but less than 10 with EFCS.
I love the full electronic shutter 😊 This camera takes about 1/25s to read the data from the chip.
I have already tried to use the flash at 1/20 but not all shots have been fully exposed.
But at 1/10s everything works fine.
As far as I know, the latest Sony cameras have the shortest readout time.
Best, ADi

ap
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:33 pm

Re: electronic shutter and flash

Post by ap »

thank you all for your helpful replies!
ive also sent a pm to mjkzz (peter lin) re his controller which apparently has a separate outlet for flash activation independent of shutter activation. id like to know if i can use it with the we macro rail and how to make the modification.

scarodactyl - thx for response. im aware that step length is dependent on mag and na, but what i was wondering is whether step length on my we macro rail using a different controller (ie MJKZZ) will be the same as with the original we macro controller. is the motor essentially similar to the mjkzz or stackshot motors w/ similar mechanical parameters (i.e. pitch, number of turns/length travel, etc), or will i need to recalibrate with the new controller?

adi - id love to be able to use full e-shutter like you, but I've no experience with electronics and even your simple diagram makes me nervous :(
i usually use approx 1-2s exposure since i use flash and need time to recycle so it wouldn't be difficult to activate the flash in the middle or near the end of the exposure, but how would one construct the separate flash activator and 'delay'?

thanks in advance
andy

Macro_Cosmos
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Re: electronic shutter and flash

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

EFCS eats into shutter life, fully electronic shutter does not.
Some models have lower bit depth when an electronic shutter is used, dynamic range thus suffers (S*ny...). I also believe electronic shutters yield more read noise since the pixels are read out line-by-line (emphasis: I believe).
Okay, read it up a bit more and I think I was right: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3926321 (not the best source)
Keep in mind that the higher read noise is basically negligible, it is just a technical thing.
Electronic shutters do not like flickering light either, but that should not be a problem here.
ap wrote:
Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:28 am
ive also sent a pm to mjkzz (peter lin) re his controller which apparently has a separate outlet for flash activation independent of shutter activation. id like to know if i can use it with the we macro rail and how to make the modification.
Personally, I do not think this is a good idea, they are competing products. Wemacro is made by William. Does your Wemacro make a clicking sound during the stack? If so, the modification is simple. Get a delay circuit module and feed the relay's output into its signal inlet, set the timer on it to like 1/10 and do increments until you find the best result.
(Voids warranty, of course.)

I guess I will write a short tutorial, I have recovered enough to start working on my projects again.

ap
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:33 pm

Re: electronic shutter and flash

Post by ap »

thank you macro cosmos - very useful info. with that, i think ill just stick to the efcs for now
apologies about my earlier post - addressed you as scarodactyl by mistake. was reading some of his posts
andy

Macro_Cosmos
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Re: electronic shutter and flash

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

Here is a method that does not require any external components, somewhat fiddly, and requires a computer.
The idea is to use Wemacro's controller to trigger the flash and use the computer Wemacro control application's mouse click simulator to trigger the camera by clicking on a button. The clicking allows a delay setting. The camera is triggered using software such as controlmynikon, EOS Utility or Capture One.

You will need a cable to connect the flash/receiver to the controller and you will not be able to do anything on the computer.

Another method that does not require the controller to be modified. Use a one-to-two adaptor to simultaneously connect the flash and the camera to the singular Wemacro port. Feed the cable into the signal input of a delay module, which is connected to the flash and closes the circuit to trigger it. Set the interval on the module until you get the result you want, or shoot in pitch black and simply ensure the flash is triggered after the shutter, utilising a long exposure time.

Like this:
fjhgekjg.jpg
Fiddly but it should work.

Saul
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Re: electronic shutter and flash

Post by Saul »

Saul
μ-stuff

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