lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Have questions about the equipment used for macro- or micro- photography? Post those questions in this forum.

Moderators: rjlittlefield, ChrisR, Chris S., Pau

enricosavazzi
Posts: 1473
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:41 pm
Location: Västerås, Sweden
Contact:

Re: lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Post by enricosavazzi »

nikonf wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:49 pm
[...]
I have NOT been able to find any flex arm that I can get into the desired position.
[...]
I agree that flex arms are not useful for precise positioning. At most, I find them useful to position largish diffusers and reflectors when a precise positioning is not required.

For precise positioning, it is hard to beat an XYZ micrometric stage, or a microscope stand and fine focuser for even more precise Z adjustments. There are also micrometric tilt stages (usually available in sets of two for XY tilting about the same center) that can be stacked on top of translation stages. A stack of two linear stages for XY translation, one Z stage for focusing, and two tilt stages for XY rotation (up to roughly 20°) can be 10-20 cm tall and you must account for this when building a stand. The micrometric stages most commonly used in photomacrography are probably those with a 60 by 60 mm base. There are also stages with a 40 by 40 mm base, but their micrometers are really tiny to operate, and close to each other.

If you do need an arm for precise positioning, you should not use arms that have matching rosettes to lock the arm's "elbow". These rosettes ensure that there is no slippage, but force the arm to be locked at discrete positions (usually every 2° or 4° angles, or multiples thereof). The elbow cannot lock at intermediate angles. Friction arms can be freely positioned, but must be locked tightly to prevent slippage, which makes their use impractical above 2x or so.

The Manfrotto mini hydrostatic arms can be freely positioned, and locked tightly by using a very low force. This reduces the risk of accidentally moving the arm while tightening it, and eliminates the risk of slippage. The arms are also stiff enough that flexing is not a problem for moderate loads. These arms are available in two or three different sizes. Note that these are not the same as friction arms, and that they are quite more expensive than the latter. Even a hydrostatic arm does not allow an equally precise positioning as a stack of micrometric stages, but usually works well enough to position a subject for up to roughly 5x magnification.
--ES

nikonf
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:28 am
Location: Westfield, NJ 07090

Re: lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Post by nikonf »

Alison, Thank you for the links. I ordered them and I am looking forward to using them.
Best,
Mike

nikonf
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:28 am
Location: Westfield, NJ 07090

Re: lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Post by nikonf »

Hi Enrico,

Thank you for your suggestions.

Is it possible to combine these?
For precise positioning, it is hard to beat an XYZ micrometric stage, or a microscope stand and fine focuser for even more precise Z adjustments.

I picked up an Olympus focusing stage and microscope stand.

Do you have any photos that demonstrate these setups?

Many thanks!

Mike Herring

enricosavazzi
Posts: 1473
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:41 pm
Location: Västerås, Sweden
Contact:

Re: lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Post by enricosavazzi »

nikonf wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:11 pm
[...]
Do you have any photos that demonstrate these setups?
[...]
Nothing showing them in actual use, but here are a few images of micrometric stages. From top to bottom:

1 - A particularly sturdy linear stage, in stainless steel instead of aluminum. It also uses double rows of steel balls on each side, to increase its load-bearing capabilities. This model can carry several Kg of load, and has built-in springs to take up the slack. The micrometer can be mounted from either side too.
2 - Z micrometric stage. This one can be used as a vertical focuser
3 - Stack of two tilt stages and two translation stages. The tilt stages are turned close to their maximum inclination. The tilt stages made of brass are particularly nice.
Attachments
P7310023s.JPG
P7310021s.JPG
P7310018s.JPG
--ES

rjlittlefield
Site Admin
Posts: 23543
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:34 am
Location: Richland, Washington State, USA
Contact:

Re: lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Post by rjlittlefield »

nikonf wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:49 pm
What would you suggest for moving a flower into the desired location for a stack?
Mike, I apologize for not answering your question earlier. I recall typing a reply, but I must have left it sitting not Submit'ed until eventually it disappeared. Anyway...

I don't shoot many flowers in this setup, and the ones that I do are always quite small.

For the case of very small flowers I can suggest placing the cut flower in a small vial of water, held with a blob of Blu-Tack in approximately correct position, on top of a screw-controlled fine positioning stack that does at least X, Y, yaw, pitch. The positioning stack that I use is shown at https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/ ... hp?t=40703 . Enrico's goniometers allow more tilt than mine, which would allow less precision in positioning the vial in the Blu-Tack.

If you cannot quite get the flower itself to sit where you want it by just positioning the vial of water, then I suggest seeing if you can bend a short piece of thin copper wire to brace the stem against the vial so you have more control. This must be done very gently, however, because such small flowers have fragile stems. It is best to just manipulate the vial if possible.

--Rik

Chris S.
Site Admin
Posts: 4037
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:55 pm
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Post by Chris S. »

enricosavazzi wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:18 pm
nikonf wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:11 pm
[...]
Do you have any photos that demonstrate these setups?
[...]
Nothing showing them in actual use, but here are a few images of micrometric stages.
An old thread of mine shows such a setup in actual use: The Bratcam.

--Chris S.

nikonf
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:28 am
Location: Westfield, NJ 07090

Re: lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Post by nikonf »

Many thanks for the excellent answers to my questions from Enrico, Rik and Chris S!

You guys are the BEST!

I am especially intriqued by Number 3 - Stack of two tilt stages and two translation stages. The tilt stages are turned close to their maximum inclination. The tilt stages made of brass are particularly nice.

The two tilt stages look very much like the tripod head I use for my Linhof view camera.
This is the Arca-Swiss Cube. Unfortunately, this head retails for approximately $2,000 in the USA!

Does anyone have any idea how much money I would have to pay for the tilt stages made of brass?
Are they only available from Chinese sources?

SIncerely,
Mike Herring

PeteM
Posts: 175
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:06 am
Location: West Coast, USA

Re: lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Post by PeteM »

Just to add another option for the structure - 1/2" gray PVC electrical conduit will be UV resistant without painting, but easily cemented to regular PVC water fittings (which I'd be inclined to paint gray or black rather than leave white).

Should someone wish to build a larger and more rigid cube, I've had success inserting and epoxying metal tubes inside PVC. In this case, 15mm aluminum tube is readily available and should fit inside either the white (water) or gray (electrical) 1/2" PVC with a bit of room for glue.

enricosavazzi
Posts: 1473
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:41 pm
Location: Västerås, Sweden
Contact:

Re: lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Post by enricosavazzi »

nikonf wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:25 pm
Many thanks for the excellent answers to my questions from Enrico, Rik and Chris S!

You guys are the BEST!

I am especially intriqued by Number 3 - Stack of two tilt stages and two translation stages. The tilt stages are turned close to their maximum inclination. The tilt stages made of brass are particularly nice.

The two tilt stages look very much like the tripod head I use for my Linhof view camera.
This is the Arca-Swiss Cube. Unfortunately, this head retails for approximately $2,000 in the USA!

Does anyone have any idea how much money I would have to pay for the tilt stages made of brass?
Are they only available from Chinese sources?

SIncerely,
Mike Herring
Check eBay item 202662699439, about 40 USD each plus shipping from S Korea. Probably US customs duties on top of that. You will need two, but I don't know whether the seller has a matched pair (he has many, so quite possible). These stages usually come in matched pairs so that once stacked in the right order, the center of rotation is the same for both stages.

These are 40 by 40 mm, but for insects or flowers they are of course fully adequate.

Same or similar item and price, eBay n. 223495227527. This seller has just a few.

There are other sellers, but prices are way too high.

Translation stages are much easier to find, and those made in China are much cheaper than tilt stages.
--ES

nikonf
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:28 am
Location: Westfield, NJ 07090

Re: lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Post by nikonf »

ES - I am checking them out now. You are correct - you don't need a large one for flowers or insects.
Thank you very much,
Mike

dy5
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:50 pm
Location: College Park, MD

Re: lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Post by dy5 »

After much experimentation and general futzing around, I completed an aluminum t-slot lighting cage that is functional. The photos below show the cage with a focusing rail+camera and a specimen holder for perspective. As examples, I attached a diversity of clamps, plates, flex arms, and other attachment types rather than trying to portray a more realistic photo setup with flashes and lights. General points:

The most useful size turned out to be (in inches) 21 long x 17 wide x 16 tall (built using 400mm and 500mm lengths of extrusion).

T-slot extrusions are pleasant to work with and aesthetically pleasing. However, without care, the resulting structures are not very rigid or vibration-free, especially with small dimension extrusions. Cross-pieces and corner-bracing are essential, as is solid anchoring to the substrate.

Assembling the cage is not difficult, but, as I found out the hard way multiple times, you need to think through the details and sequences carefully before starting. Example: make sure the crosspieces are level relative to the frame before tightening everything down.

Many clamp types work fine on the square profiles. The most secure seem to be those designed to clamp to a table edge. Photo supply places like B&H have many varieties.

Cheese plates looked like they would make versatile and strong anchor points. However, flex-arms mounted on them tend to spin and loosen. Lock washers help. Clamps are probably a better approach, especially if you're going to be moving things around frequently.

Under the category of 'I should have known better:' mixing metric and imperial hardware is not optimal. The necessary adapters are available, but it's a nuisance.

Bottom line: this lighting cage is rigid, strong, and compatible with a broad range of attachment methods. It should be very useful. As I mentioned earlier, however, for many applications, other solutions, like Rik's, will be more cost and time efficient without sacrificing much important functionality.

Hope this is all helpful.
Cheers, David
______________________________________________________________________
Amazon shopping list (there are many other sources of t-slot materials as well):

Basic components:

T-slot extrusions 20/20 V-type European std.:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B087P ... UTF8&psc=1

3-way connectors:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09C7 ... =UTF8&th=1

Interior L-connectors:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08D6 ... UTF8&psc=1
or
Exterior corner brackets:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B091GH5QKF/re ... RHBT6&th=1

Right-angle brace:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09DY ... =UTF8&th=1

T- brace:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09X3 ... =UTF8&th=1

End caps:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0747 ... UTF8&psc=1

T-slot nuts:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0841 ... UTF8&th=1


T-slot drop-in nuts:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078R ... UTF8&psc=1

T-slot roll-in nuts:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B082F ... UTF8&psc=1

Miscellaneous:

M5-to-1/4-20 adapters:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08V4 ... UTF8&psc=1
and
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08VD ... UTF8&psc=1

M5 hex-socket screws (the lengths needed will vary):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Q6 ... =UTF8&th=1

Camera expansion plates (cheese plates):
many possibilities from SmallRig, Camvate, and others
_____________________________________________________________________
T-alot cage right copy.jpg
T-slot cage upper right copy.jpg
T-slot top left copy.jpg
T-slot cage back copy.jpg
T-slot left copy.jpg

nikonf
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:28 am
Location: Westfield, NJ 07090

Re: lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Post by nikonf »

David,
This is a great cage! What are the components you are using for the subject stage at the far end of the cage?
They are made by Melles Griot?
Thanks,
Mike

DavyC
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:53 pm
Location: UK

Re: lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Post by DavyC »

David,
Your project has turned out really well.
You have spent a bit of time on this.Nice work!
This is just what I wanted to see.
Am waiting on various bits and pieces to arrive.
Thanks for sharing.
Davy

dy5
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:50 pm
Location: College Park, MD

Re: lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Post by dy5 »

Mike -

It's something I lucked into on eBay. XYZ plus rotation. Quite good quality. I don't think Melles Griot exists anymore as an independent company. Their stages appear occasionally on eBay, sometimes at lower prices than you might find for Newport or any of the bigger names. OptoSigma stages look similar, but I don't have any experience with them.

Cheers, David

rjlittlefield
Site Admin
Posts: 23543
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:34 am
Location: Richland, Washington State, USA
Contact:

Re: lighting cage with CAMVATE clamps and arms

Post by rjlittlefield »

nikonf wrote:
Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:05 pm
What are the components you are using for the subject stage at the far end of the cage?
They are made by Melles Griot?
eBay regularly has no-name "XYZR platform" units new for around $200. I expect these are not equal to the quality of the big name units, but every new one that I've touched has been fine for my purposes. I have had some some trouble with used ones, quite likely damaged by sloppy shipping.

--Rik

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic