How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Have questions about the equipment used for macro- or micro- photography? Post those questions in this forum.

Moderators: rjlittlefield, ChrisR, Chris S., Pau

benjamind2014
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:07 am

How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Post by benjamind2014 »

I've been wanting to know this for a while now, as I've recently accumulated enough money to be able to buy a decent microscope setup, but still hesitant regarding overall cost, as some have suggested outrageous sums of money for a decent DIC enabled setup.

What would I be looking at from the three main microscope outfits, Zeiss, Olympus, and Nikon?

I know it's going to be into the 5 figures, but just wanted an idea of what I'd be up for. I know there are 2nd hand setups, but with optics these days it's been hard to trust vendors that the optics are not damaged in any way, so was at some point even considering a brand new setup.

Any advice here would be much appreciated.

Cheers.

Macro_Cosmos
Posts: 1511
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:23 pm
Contact:

Re: How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

Depends on your definition of decent, mine which I would consider alright was 5 figures, however, nearly all the parts were used.

Well, I would of course suggest Olympus, the one I have the most experience with. I'm working on a DIC article as information on parts is lacking and manuals are incomplete, and there's a lot of "misinformation" out there, I learned some of it the hard way so no one would again.

You are lucky, you live in Australia. Our Olympus prices according to my experience anyway is the cheapest. Prices: Europe > America > China > ours. Perhaps it's cheaper in Japan, I don't have a contact there.

A typical prism is around A$600 with 60x prisms being more expensive, around A$650. This is actually similar to eBay's "used prices". The real hurdle is wait times, my recent purchase got quoted a lead time of 3-4 months, though the parts I wanted are very niche.

You would want current production UIS2 objectives that do not require the annoying "BFP-1" (ie UPlanFl 40x NA1.3 oil) slot which only exists on the U-DICTS and a couple others. For general use, the standard DIC setup is good. Parts are the U-DICT (~A$3000), you need the U-ANT (~A$270), a universal condenser such as the U-UCD8-2 ($3000) or U-UCDB-2 (discontinued). Difference between "-2" and the older version is merely the scales' indication with U-TLD and U-TLO, old version only has U-TLO written. Ehhhh this will be in my article.

Then the frame, obviously I recommend the BX53 and nothing else. A very bright lamp is great, or you can go with the LED model. That'll be A$4k.
Nosepiece must have the slider slot, U-DRE6, ~A$650. 10x, 20x, 40x, 60x and 100x prisms, or rather you'll just go with either 60x or 100x, that'll be $2400.
Trinocular head is around A$2000 and eyepieces are another A$500 or so. For the camera stuff, PE2.5x and PE3.3x is good to have (~A$120), U-SPT is like $30 used and photomicro adapter L is around US$250 all discontinued. I'm re-evaluating my opinions on direct projection, leaning towards photoeyepieces now.
Stage, the U-SVRB-4 is good, A$400 with dual slide clip.

Let's see, that's $15,520 without objectives. Objectives average at A$1200 each new, so a bit more than $20k should get you a very good setup with some parts that you're forced to buy used.

benjamind2014
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:07 am

Re: How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Post by benjamind2014 »

Much appreciate that long list of advice you've given. Sounds like it's worthwhile, and $20k is definitely within my budget, but buying used stuff has me wary as I've had bad experiences in the past with used optical gear.

Is there a huge difference between the price of a used setup and a brand new setup?

I've been looking at the Zeiss Axioscope 5 today, on the web, not much information about prices, but did see this: https://imbros.com.au/product/zeiss-zeiss-axioscope-5/ and I thought it looked pretty nice.

Zeiss have always had good quality.

Macro_Cosmos
Posts: 1511
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:23 pm
Contact:

Re: How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

benjamind2014 wrote:
Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:27 pm
Much appreciate that long list of advice you've given. Sounds like it's worthwhile, and $20k is definitely within my budget, but buying used stuff has me wary as I've had bad experiences in the past with used optical gear.

Is there a huge difference between the price of a used setup and a brand new setup?

I've been looking at the Zeiss Axioscope 5 today, on the web, not much information about prices, but did see this: https://imbros.com.au/product/zeiss-zeiss-axioscope-5/ and I thought it looked pretty nice.

Zeiss have always had good quality.
Zeiss has really good ergonomics, but the prices are high and it's hard to find used stuff that works. Information is also very scarce, I'd recommend the Axioimager (A2 at least, Z2 is a brilliant system). Axioskop is equivalent to the CX line - bx1 (bx40, bx50).

Olympus benefits from OEMs that love their stuff. If you visit diatoms.com.au, you can see my small projects to automate my BX3. These parts are plentiful and cheap.

Used stuff is fine if you know how to test it. I sell used and tested optical components from Sydney. The price difference is quite large, with that budget, you can get a set of SApos instead of FL, and some nice phase contrast options. Main problem with used DIC is scarcity, many parts basically do not exist (oil immersion top and oil DIC prisms), the universal condenser is hard to come by and gets purchased instantly. I got mine from a contact for a decent price, if he listed it, the condenser would have been sold in probably hours.

Another issue with used items is compatibility. You'll need to seriously educate yourself on the parts, or else you'll waste money on incompatible or less desired components that may or may not be cheaper if purchased new.

PeteM
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:06 am
Location: West Coast, USA

Re: How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Post by PeteM »

I can't speak to prices in Australia, but patience in the U.S. could get you an older finite Zeiss DIC scope for around $3000 US, a Nikon finite Optiphot for under $4000 with "CFN" plan objectives, a Leica DM series around $6000 up, and a Nikon Eclipse E-600 with a 20x plan apo and some plan fluors around the same.

The difficulty, of course, is that you really want to see and try a DIC scope in person before buying. Shipping a heavy scope adds further risk and cost. There is also at least one Ebay seller offering "DIC" scopes cobbled together from non-standard parts so you do need to take some care. I do see your desire for buying new.

The Nikon Optiphot systems I've used are limited to 20x, 40x, and 60x/100x DIC prism magnifications - but provide excellent images at those magnifications. The Nikon CFN objectives with a sort of triple-ring chrome knurl on the barrel seem to be part-way towards plan fluors, with somewhat higher numerical apertures than plan achromats at all but 100x magnfication. The Nikon 60x Plan Apo oil objectives work very well with the condenser prisms for 60/100x. Visually, the 10x, 20x, and 40x Plan Apos aren't significantly better in DIC than the CFN equivalents - at least to my eye - but differences do show up in photos.

The Nikon Eclipse benefits a bit from the availability of those wonderful 20x Plan Apos formerly used in gene sequencers. The older generation E-600's are excellent scopes and show up fairly frequently. It should be very possible to get one well under $10,000 and with a good set of objectives.

My experience with both Olympus BHS finite and Olympus BX infinite series is that U.S. auction prices tend to be a bit higher (due to their popularity) without necessarily providing better images than the Nikon and Leica equivalents. I'd add that BX40 frame can be equipped with a DIC nosepiece (with a hard-to-find or hard-to-make interchangeable nosepiece adapter) and a brighter LED lamp -- and those frames are considerably cheaper if you can find the other bits. Another "cheat" for Olympus BX is to modify a regular phase condenser to hold DIC prisms. This requires boring the cavities a bit larger to fit prisms instead of phase annuli. Anyhow, a used frame with newer optics might make some sense if budget is an issue?

A.O. / Reichert systems sometimes show up reasonably priced at auction and offer good DIC images. Perhaps an option for others.

With Zeiss, I've had difficulty finding early top-slider prisms without delamination (first and second generation finite systems). However, slight delamination isn't necessarily an image killer. The new systems - which have put delamination behind them - are beyond affordable for me.

Nikon and Olympus seem easiest to find the bits to attach your own full frame camera for both finite and infinite generation scopes.

Leica DM series (with plan fluors) provide excellent DIC with deep contrast, but finding the photo relay bits is a bit more difficult.

I've only tried afocal with the older Zeiss finite system. Zeiss availability of good used parts is likely far better for those in Europe, though.

FWIW, epi DIC is far more commonly available and cheaper due to their wide use in semiconductor wafer inspection -- and I suspect many specimens could be prepared for epi illumination and provide some creative options at lower cost.

Macro_Cosmos
Posts: 1511
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:23 pm
Contact:

Re: How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

All the listed options are *basically* non-existent in Australia, there's two people selling used microscope stuff here (a good mate and I) and we both test our stuff. I can resonate with DIC related woes and the urge to just get new parts. I'm going to start working on the article today, there's lots of options for savings but I'd expect those options to climb up in price if my article gets any traction... such is life.

(The BH2-UCD conderser works and it's often cheapish)

I'm not sure about modifying a phase contrast condenser. The 0.9NA top lens is aplanatic and achromatically corrected, the phase condensers use an Abbe condenser. Surely it's only compatible to some extent, right? You may or may not get a sound DIC effect with such mods, the same goes with prism mish-mashing.

My ultimate recommendation is a set of fluorites and new prisms. Chances are the author doesn't care much about an immersion top lens which needs its own set of filters, so NA is restricted to 0.9.

viktor j nilsson
Posts: 423
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:43 am
Location: Lund, Sweden

Re: How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Post by viktor j nilsson »

Macro_Cosmos wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:50 am
All the listed options are *basically* non-existent in Australia, there's two people selling used microscope stuff here (a good mate and I) and we both test our stuff.
Surely it must be possible to import a DIC microscope from a market where they are more common? I've sent some stuff to Australia and it wasn't more expensive than sending to most other places. If the money isn't a problem, buying new seems like a nice and reliable option. But even if you overpay a bit for an older system from a reliable seller, and add tax and shipping on top of it, you should still be able to get a really really good DIC-equipped BH2 or Optiphot with PlanApo's for a whole lot less than 20k. And that will definitely qualify as 'decent' in my book.

Scarodactyl
Posts: 1617
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:26 am

Re: How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Post by Scarodactyl »

You can always be a trailblazer and buy one of the dic systems from China. I'm very curious how good they are.

benjamind2014
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:07 am

Re: How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Post by benjamind2014 »

Scarodactyl wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:36 am
You can always be a trailblazer and buy one of the dic systems from China. I'm very curious how good they are.
Where can these be found? I've had a look but am not entirely sure where they are or what optics they use. It seems they are probably good. But MOTIC have yet to do a DIC microscope.

It would be nice if DIC became more common and mainstream in the microscope setups, and thus cheaper. I think that would open up a lot of better options for enthusiasts. But there is always oblique which is okay up to around 400x or 0.65NA but not quite as good as DIC with decent fluorite objectives.

Scarodactyl
Posts: 1617
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:26 am

Re: How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Post by Scarodactyl »

I think I saw Bestscope listing it as an option, though I didn't dig into it. Mostly I've seen epi systems since that's where my own usage lies. You might want to ask apochronaut over on microbehunter, he seems to have made contact with some of the higher end sellers there.

Macro_Cosmos
Posts: 1511
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:23 pm
Contact:

Re: How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

viktor j nilsson wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:32 am
But even if you overpay a bit for an older system from a reliable seller, and add tax and shipping on top of it, you should still be able to get a really really good DIC-equipped BH2 or Optiphot with PlanApo's for a whole lot less than 20k. And that will definitely qualify as 'decent' in my book.
Yeah, it's possible, an entire microscope though? Top notch packaging is required. Commercial sellers either won't bother with our tiny market or do a poor job. It's more reliable to get something from a hobbyist who will take packaging requests.

Since the OP deemed 20k reasonable, I'll recommend a used frame and mechanics such as the stage and lamphouse (whisper... I have a very nice set for sale), and the DIC parts purchased new. That'll likely cost 12k. A finite DIC system is still cheaper of course. I've seen full DIC BH2 systems for below $4k. There was a partial DIC Nikon Optiphot on Gumtree for... ... $200!!!!!! I missed it. A couple prisms and objectives were missing.
benjamind2014 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:21 pm
Where can these be found? I've had a look but am not entirely sure where they are or what optics they use. It seems they are probably good. But MOTIC have yet to do a DIC microscope.
Send me a message, I'll give you my email and get you in touch with a good mate in SA. I checked his parts list, he should still have a used BX41 frame with lamphouse, the nosepiece can be swapped for a U-D6RE for DIC. My U-D6RE had traces of disassembly, doesn't seem to affect parfocality. It's around $650 new.

The halogen bulb can be swapped out for an LED one to provide a lot more light. I'm happy to get you one of these, shipping would be $15 China to Sydney and $9 locally, Taobao charges GST now :( (10%, so 220 yuan). On top of that, 3% CC surcharge. It should be 100% possible to DIY it.
led.jpg
If anyone in Australia wants a BX40 frame, I'm giving one out for free, have to pay postage. It's an empty frame, no electronics, nothing. To power the lamp (no lamphouse), simply use a DC power supply.

viktor j nilsson
Posts: 423
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:43 am
Location: Lund, Sweden

Re: How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Post by viktor j nilsson »

This looks like a pretty legit package:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/324708191991

Edit, and it's apparently being sold by David Walker of Micscape Magazine.

houstontx
Posts: 395
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:07 pm

Re: How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Post by houstontx »

I have a nikon eclipse 80i with fluorescence in great condition that would just love to be outfitted with the DIC gear above. Willing to negotiate a reasonable price if anyone interested... :D

Scarodactyl
Posts: 1617
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:26 am

Re: How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Post by Scarodactyl »

benjamind2014 wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 4:21 pm
Scarodactyl wrote:
Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:36 am
You can always be a trailblazer and buy one of the dic systems from China. I'm very curious how good they are.
Where can these be found? I've had a look but am not entirely sure where they are or what optics they use. It seems they are probably good. .
Just as an update, user 'farnsy' over at the microbehunter forums has recently purchased the bestscope system with fluorite objectives and seems pretty happy with it. I am hoping he will post some pictures but you may want to contact him.

dy5
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:50 pm
Location: College Park, MD

Re: How much would a decent DIC microscope setup with Plan Fluors cost in Australia?

Post by dy5 »

I have a Nikon 80i outfitted with DIC that does a great job. DIC is definitely addictive. As everyone has said, availability of components is a major issue. I was able to get some from eBay, but ultimately had to get some others directly from Nikon. I haven't gone back through the records, but I'm quite sure the whole thing came in under $20k with planapo objectives (but got an unusually good deal on the 80i). In the last year, the condenser, substage polarizer, and post-objective analyzer have come up on eBay for reasonable prices (still there, actually). The condenser prisms and objective sliders are tougher to get.

I've used DIC on a Zeiss Axioskop as well, but prefer the Nikon system. With the Zeiss model I used, you make the DIC adjustments with a knob on the objective slider. With the Nikon, you do it at the substage polarizer, which I prefer.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic