Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Have questions about the equipment used for macro- or micro- photography? Post those questions in this forum.

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Perfekto
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Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Post by Perfekto »

Note to admin: I am reposting this message in this forum which I think is more specific, please feel free to delete my other one here

Bonjour, from France,

I am trying to put together the list of equipment I need to make a (self-funded) film with only microscopic actors.
I am already making a film with only insects that I shot in the Philippines jungles over 2 years. So I am familiar with cameras and the challenges of macro videography. It's a film where all the characters are insects, not like a documentary, more like a contemplative story to stimulate the imagination and spread awareness about the richness in nature.
But I am a complete newbie in mater of microvideography. This is why I really need help choosing the proper equipment. I am also aware equipment is only a fraction of the situation, but I really can't afford accidentally buying stuff that will produce bad results or that I won't even use !

My number one goal is to achieve 4K video shots that are visually aesthetically pleasing, at magnifications between X5 & X 20 (I don't know how much higher I'll be able to film with my modest budget), and as much depth of field as quantumly possible!
I am very admirative of the work of these artists, if you don't know them, I really encourage you to take a look 😍 : Craig Smith, Mike Roscope, or also Marek Mis.
So these are the kinds of results I am aiming for, if I manage to reach these levels of talent. I am just giving this information as pointers so you can better advise me equipment-wise.

My camera is a Lumix GH-4, so it is a mirrorless Micro 4/3 mount, and films in 4K. I have a Metabones Canon EF to Micro Four Thirds Adapter for it as well (no optics), and a Canon 100mm lens and some tubes. It's beautiful. I don't own a telephoto per-say (but if I'd be better off buying one and plug the camera directly into the microscope without an adapter, please let me know too !).

What I am looking for, are lists suggestions of ingredients (parts and model suggestions) I should go for in order to film through a microscope, using the camera I have, and aiming towards the kind of aesthetically beautiful results I mentioned above.
Example of the ideal kind of answer I need :
- microscope : Zeiss Standard GFL / or Whirlpool SliceSpinner 2000
- lens : use the stock lens, to which you can add for X5, the Olympus Green Mormon X5 Apo and for X10 get the Mitutoyo X10 M Plan Flaming Cubensis T38
- camera to microscope adapter : get the Nikon Fancy Nugget 2000, it has really good glass resolution
- light : as your basic light get 3 LED lights on flexible arm of any brand with variable voltage, + for darkfield get a Magic Crystal ball from Monkey BBQ.com


I have talked to several micro videographers already, including some mentioned above, and gathered some precious information, such as M Plan Apo objectives being my best bet for magnifications above X5. The brand Mitutoyo came back often as well. What do you think ?

While I am aware that I am a complete beginner in this field and have a lot to learn/experiment with, I don't wish to purchase equipment that will give me mediocre results, and then have to start all over again. I am looking for the best configuration I should get to get beautiful, aesthetically pleasing (not looking like out of a lab but more like a bbc documentary), in a +/-1200$ budget or possibly less, as this is really my own savings and how much I can afford at this stage. Yes I know BBC has unlimited budget and my budget in comparison is ridiculous, it's just a general direction; all I need is advice on how to optimise it to go as much in that direction as quantumly possible. Some of the microvideographers I listed above achieved their results with really small budgets (and a lot of experimenting). Also please note that I am in France, so eBay options are not as fertile as in the US !

Thank you very much for your wisdom. 🙏🏻
The film I'm currently working on : Mikro, the Aliens from Earth (snippets at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC71Ry ... XEVIzw-llA )

Scarodactyl
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Re: Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Post by Scarodactyl »

It kind of seems like you don't yet have a firm grasp on what, specifically, you want to film with the microscope. You should probably take some more time to do some research and get a stronger sense of what subjects you want to look at and which lighting techniques you want to use. As is there's no way to give very specific advice.

Lou Jost
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Re: Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Post by Lou Jost »

I suggest you do some simple searches on this forum, such as "Mitutoyo" (often abbreviated here as "Mity"). There is a huge amount of information on this forum, and most people who post nice photos here also tell the equipment they used. You'll see that there are many different solutions, but that they are different for different magnification ranges and lighting, as Scarodactyl said. It will be hard to cover the magnification range of 5x-20x at a professional level with the budget you mentioned. You would need at least 10x and 20x objectives, and if you want Mitutoyos (definitely highly recommended), you will use up that budget. For the 5x you can find bargain solutions using coupled Micro-Four-Thirds lenses which you may already have.

You mentioned a microscope. Do you already have one?

You might also try to think in terms of field of view rather than magnification. On this forum, people post images from MFT camera like yours, but also from APS sensors (most common) and full frame sensors. If you see a photo on this forum that inspires you and that you would like to be able to match, and if it was taken with a full frame camera at 20x, then you would only need 10x on your smaller sensor to achieve the same image.

Also, as always, the Frequently-asked Questions (FAQ) section of the Forum (see menu tab above LJ Edit: No, correct link is viewforum.php?f=29 see Rik's comment below) may answer many of your questions.
Last edited by Lou Jost on Wed May 19, 2021 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

rjlittlefield
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Re: Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Post by rjlittlefield »

Lou Jost wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 8:32 am
Also, as always, the Frequently-asked Questions (FAQ) section of the Forum (see menu tab above) may answer many of your questions.
To ward off a possible misunderstanding...

The menu tab labeled "FAQ", probably with a question mark in front of it, leads to app.php/help/faq . But this is information about how to use the forum, not to information about photography.

For information about photography, the right place is viewforum.php?f=29 , which is advertised on the main index page as
Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)
Here are summaries and links to discussions for Frequently Asked Questions.
--Rik

Lou Jost
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Re: Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Post by Lou Jost »

Oops, thanks for correcting that. I had assumed that this stored the FAQ page. Maybe it would be a good idea to also have a tab for the page you linked to?

adamski
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Re: Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Post by adamski »

How about contacting some of mentioned above creators and get footage from them? That would be the cheapest and possibly best option for you. Could I ask what microbes are you looking to include in your video? How long will this video be?

viktor j nilsson
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Re: Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Post by viktor j nilsson »

The three microscopists you linked to all seem to use typical upright microscopes with transmitted light. Mike Roscope seem to use techniques that are easy to do and require little specialized equipment (low magnification darkfield, brightfield). Craig Smith appear to use DIC on a Zeiss finite microscope. I am not sure if Marek Mis uses DIC, but for his most striking images he typically use polarized light, or a combination of polarization and darkfield.

This is pretty much consistent with my experience that, among the techniques accessible to an amateur, the most aesthetically pleasing images are often taken with DIC, Darkfield and Polarization. Various DIY techniques that are built on oblique illumination, often in combination with some diffusion, can also provide really nice images.

DIC is usually pretty expensive ($3000+), but the other techniques, including darkfield below NA 0.65, are easy to DIY with regular brightfield condenser + linear polarization filters, cardboard cutouts, scotch tape, etc. Darkfield is quite easy to DIY and very pretty with most 10x and 20x objectives, and can work okay at 40x NA 0.65, but becomes very demanding above an NA of 0.7 or so, both because you need a good, dedicated darkfield condenser, but also because your slides needs to be super clean.

So pretty much all you need to make beautiful videos is any decent brightfield microscope with good objectives, and a matching photo setup. The photo setup you need will vary a lot depending on what microscope you buy, so is pretty meaningless to discuss what parts you need before you find a good microscope you want to buy.

If I were you, I would start by looking for a good, used microscope from Nikon, Olympus, Zeiss or Leitz that comes with a trinocular head and a set of well-corrected objectives (Fluorites or PlanApo's). Then start learning sample preparation and microphotographic techniques. Getting images as good as Marek Mis and others requires a lot of patience and experience. The equipment is really only a very small part of it.

Lou Jost
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Re: Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Post by Lou Jost »

Viktor's advice is very good. I would only add that it is often better ( and sometimes cheaper) to buy a used microscope WITHOUT objectives, and then buy the objectives you actually want rather than the objectives that the last owner wanted to get rid of.

viktor j nilsson
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Re: Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Post by viktor j nilsson »

Lou Jost wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 7:09 am
Viktor's advice is very good. I would only add that it is often better ( and sometimes cheaper) to buy a used microscope WITHOUT objectives, and then buy the objectives you actually want rather than the objectives that the last owner wanted to get rid of.
Yep, that can definately be a good route to take. But buying good objectives separately can sometimes be expensive. In my experience, buying an entire microscope with the objectives you want is often the cheapest way to get good objectives. People looking for objectives often don't look as closely at ads for whole microscopes, or don't want to deal with the hassle of taking the objectives and selling the frame. And people selling microscopes sometimes forget to bring attention to the fact that a microscope comes with really good objectives (that are worth more than the rest of the microscope on their own). So by trawling through eBay you can often find a microscope with great objectives that sell for not much more than the same microscope with average objectives.

I have seen several Nikon and Olympus microscopes with full sets of PlanApo objectives sell for less than two of these objectives would usually go for when listed separately. A couple of years back there was a Nikon Microphot listed for a long time with 4x,10x,20x,40x, and 60x PlanApo's that eventually sold for $850, if I remember correctly.

Anyway, we agree that it is the objectives you should focus your search on, and pay for. Or possibly special equipment like DIC, if you find a screaming deal.

Lou Jost
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Re: Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Post by Lou Jost »

So by trawling through eBay you can often find a microscope with great objectives that sell for not much more than the same microscope with average objectives.
Absolutely true, as long as the objectives are really the ones he needs. It is easy to convince oneself that one of these sets is such a great deal that it can't be passed up, and then one finds that the objectives, good though they might be, are not the ones that are really needed. So the right objectives have to be bought in addition....

Perfekto
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Re: Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Post by Perfekto »

Lou Jost wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 8:31 am
as long as the objectives are really the ones he needs. It is easy to convince oneself that one of these sets is such a great deal that it can't be passed up, and then one finds that the objectives, good though they might be, are not the ones that are really needed. So the right objectives have to be bought in addition....
Exactly !
At my entry level I am really having a hard time evaluating what I need, the options / combinations seem so infinite. Maybe as infinite as the microcosmos.
The film I'm currently working on : Mikro, the Aliens from Earth (snippets at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC71Ry ... XEVIzw-llA )

Perfekto
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Re: Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Post by Perfekto »

Scarodactyl wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 5:48 am
It kind of seems like you don't yet have a firm grasp on what, specifically, you want to film with the microscope. You should probably take some more time to do some research and get a stronger sense of what subjects you want to look at and which lighting techniques you want to use. As is there's no way to give very specific advice.
Yes yes I know, I am a beginner and I need advice. I thought my initial post was quite specific though, with examples of the kind of aesthetics I'm looking for (I'm really not seeing this with a scientific approach but a film making approach), magnification ranges (let's stay around X10 for now), my camera model, budget, etc... What other information should I provide in order to be pointed in the right direction ? :o
The film I'm currently working on : Mikro, the Aliens from Earth (snippets at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC71Ry ... XEVIzw-llA )

Perfekto
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Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:57 am

Re: Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Post by Perfekto »

Lou Jost wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 8:32 am
[...] You would need at least 10x and 20x objectives, and if you want Mitutoyos (definitely highly recommended), you will use up that budget. For the 5x you can find bargain solutions using coupled Micro-Four-Thirds lenses which you may already have.
You mentioned a microscope. Do you already have one? [...]
Hi Lou, and thanks a lot for your answer. Yes I am aware that my crop factor as with my insect movie, plays in my favour. Still no idea what kind of adapter preserves image quality nicely and what lens on the camera I would have to couple it with (if any). I do not own a microscope yet.
The film I'm currently working on : Mikro, the Aliens from Earth (snippets at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC71Ry ... XEVIzw-llA )

Perfekto
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Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:57 am

Re: Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Post by Perfekto »

adamski wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 2:00 am
How about contacting some of mentioned above creators and get footage from them? That would be the cheapest and possibly best option for you. Could I ask what microbes are you looking to include in your video? How long will this video be?
Yes I thought of that but then thought that was a bit lazy. My purpose is to create a work of art not just finish a product :P I need to have it made the way I want, even if it takes me a long time to learn. I don't know what microbes I will include in this film, I will discover which ones are the best actors on the way.
The film I'm currently working on : Mikro, the Aliens from Earth (snippets at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC71Ry ... XEVIzw-llA )

Perfekto
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:57 am

Re: Equipment advice needed for a story about the invisible world

Post by Perfekto »

viktor j nilsson wrote:
Thu May 20, 2021 6:33 am
The three microscopists you linked to all seem to use typical upright microscopes with transmitted light. Mike Roscope seem to use techniques that are easy to do and require little specialized equipment (low magnification darkfield, brightfield). Craig Smith appear to use DIC on a Zeiss finite microscope. I am not sure if Marek Mis uses DIC, but for his most striking images he typically use polarized light, or a combination of polarization and darkfield.

This is pretty much consistent with my experience that, among the techniques accessible to an amateur, the most aesthetically pleasing images are often taken with DIC, Darkfield and Polarization. Various DIY techniques that are built on oblique illumination, often in combination with some diffusion, can also provide really nice images.

DIC is usually pretty expensive ($3000+), but the other techniques, including darkfield below NA 0.65, are easy to DIY with regular brightfield condenser + linear polarization filters, cardboard cutouts, scotch tape, etc. Darkfield is quite easy to DIY and very pretty with most 10x and 20x objectives, and can work okay at 40x NA 0.65, but becomes very demanding above an NA of 0.7 or so, both because you need a good, dedicated darkfield condenser, but also because your slides needs to be super clean.

So pretty much all you need to make beautiful videos is any decent brightfield microscope with good objectives, and a matching photo setup. The photo setup you need will vary a lot depending on what microscope you buy, so is pretty meaningless to discuss what parts you need before you find a good microscope you want to buy.

If I were you, I would start by looking for a good, used microscope from Nikon, Olympus, Zeiss or Leitz that comes with a trinocular head and a set of well-corrected objectives (Fluorites or PlanApo's). Then start learning sample preparation and microphotographic techniques. Getting images as good as Marek Mis and others requires a lot of patience and experience. The equipment is really only a very small part of it.
Hello Viktor and thank you very very much for putting into words these extremely useful notions for me. I am copying everything you said in my google work document. I think you just gave me really solid leads to explore and start making progress in various aspects. And yes I am well aware that as with most arts, equipment is a small part of it, I have a lot to figure out. :shock:
Did you already know these artists I listed? It seemed like you do !
The film I'm currently working on : Mikro, the Aliens from Earth (snippets at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC71Ry ... XEVIzw-llA )

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