Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

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orangetang
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Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

Post by orangetang »

Hello,

I've spent a couple of weeks looking for a used microscope that would be suitable to use for photomicrography. This would be my first microscope I've laid hands on since highschool therefore I honestly had no idea where to start. I reached out to the forum at microbehunter.com looking for a cost effective alternatives to the seemingly costly factory options such as rare Olympus trinocular heads and matching adapter tubes. A few of the members there linked me to some articles and threads that routinely kept throwing me back at this forum with more and more excellent information.

Last night after several hours in front of a computer screen I made a decision and purchased two used Leica SM-LUX microscopes off eBay along with a myriad of inexpensive eyepieces and ring adapters. After missing out on a couple of opportunities, the included NPL objectives and 'refurbished' condition felt like a worthwhile purchase/value.

For adapting my Nikon Z6 to the scope I hope to use a method closest to what gpmatthews has done with his Leitz Dialux. The fact that the M28 thread on the periplan eyepieces can be hard mount to my camera's lens is one of the leading reasons I chose Leitz, as I'm not sure how well the clamp style adapter will hold up over time. For now I've purchased an M52 to M28 adapter which could potentially screw the eyepiece directly to my Nikkor 50mm lens, and also two different styles of clamp-on M48 x 1.25" adapters that gpmatthews and David Walker have used with success, with appropriate M42 to M52 rings in both directions.

In the mail are the following two scopes. One is supposedly refurbished and in excellent condition, while the other was sold as not working - for parts. Oddly the 'refurbished' model from seller micropticsoflorida appears to have American Optics 10X WF judging by the profile and crest on the bottom. I believe I read here that a periplan eyepiece is mandatory for afocal photography as a standard camera tube adapter would create aberration and distort the image, so I assume the same is true for the head. Whether these work for this purpose or not, I have no idea. The doner scope appears to have Periplan GF 10X eyepieces, though it's also difficult to tell from the images.

My best guess for included objectives included:
A 2.5x/0.07 170/-
A 10x/0.25 170/-
NPL 25x/0.50 170/0.17
NPL 40x/0.65 170/0.17
NPL 100x/1.30 170/0.17

LEITZ WETZLAR SM-LUX MICROCOPE FOUR OBJECTIVES
Ernst Leitz 020-441.004 SM Lux with 1 Leitz Objective No Light
Untitled-1.jpg
I'll be out in the North Sea at work until the end of the month and will probably beat these scopes back to my home in Canada, but if there is any recommendations from this community on anything I should purchase ahead of time that would be fantastic. I don't get much time at home between shifts, so anything I can get taken care of now might mean I can use it in a few weeks instead of a few months.

A few questions...

1. There appear to be small differences in the flange height between the two scopes though it sounds like ANY SM-Lux binocular head should have a 43 mm tube ring dovetail diameter, and heads should be interchangeable between other 170mm stands such as the Ortholux 2, Dialux (grey), HM-Lux and Diavert. Is that difference in flange height between stands a non-issue?

2. What is the drop in adapter required for this style of trinocular head to accept a suitable eyepiece for the 170mm objectives?

3. I believe my eyepiece choices to be 519739 for 170mm or 519749 for 160mm (red dot preferred) as per Pau's comment here. However other sources have demonstrated that the 8X KPL, 10X KPL W and Objektiv 4:1 are all good high eye-point eyepieces to use for the afocal adaptation. Thoughts?

4. Is there a condenser or stage for these scopes that will accept a polarizer filter, or should I plan on running one on the illumination housing?

5. Is there a clever way to drop in a polarizer filter inside the trinocular tube - or might using a 42 or 52mm polarizer on the camera or adapter potentially work the same - assuming the exit pupil distance of the lens permits?

6. Did I make a poor decision? {-o<

Thanks for all of the information so far. FYI, Pau, Ichthyophthirius and others have done a good job of persuading me into the afocal mindset, something I hadn't even heard of a few days ago.
Last edited by orangetang on Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

iconoclastica
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Re: Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

Post by iconoclastica »

4. Is there a condenser or stage for these scopes that will accept a polarizer filter, or should I plan on running one on the illumination housing?
I have a (photographic) polarizer filter that just lies on top of the lens barrel where the light leaves the stand and projects up into the condenser. It is even easier to turn in tat position than elsewhere in the light path. Find one with a suitable diameter so it rests stable in position.
--- felix filicis ---

orangetang
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Re: Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

Post by orangetang »

iconoclastica wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:39 pm
4. Is there a condenser or stage for these scopes that will accept a polarizer filter, or should I plan on running one on the illumination housing?
I have a (photographic) polarizer filter that just lies on top of the lens barrel where the light leaves the stand and projects up into the condenser. It is even easier to turn in tat position than elsewhere in the light path. Find one with a suitable diameter so it rests stable in position.
This is what I was hoping to do, but where are you placing the 2nd polarizer above the objectives?

orangetang
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Re: Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

Post by orangetang »

Reading again through the recommended phototube adapters and eyepieces, I understand that the 170mm adapter must use the Periplan 10X 'glasses' unmarked 519739 eyepiece specifically while the 160mm adapter can be used with 519748 10x/18, 519749 10x/18 OR 518058 10x/20. Considering these are ALL threaded with a M28x0.75 they would be easier and more practical than using anything else.

How do the above eyepieces compare to the non-threaded KPL W 8X or MF Objektiv 4:1 for image quality paired with NPL objectives? Might one of these be worth a 2nd look and potentially sway a decision to the 170mm adapter?

Currently there are no 170mm 519739 eyepieces on eBay but there is a 170mm adapter. Hypothetically, could I not just REMOVE 10mm from the top of the 170mm adapter, and use 160mm eyepieces and 170mm with a spacer/collar?

OR, do I need to use the 170mm adapter regardless on an SM-LUX.

Pau
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Re: Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

Post by Pau »

Currently there are no 170mm 519739 eyepieces on eBay but there is a 170mm adapter. Hypothetically, could I not just REMOVE 10mm from the top of the 170mm adapter, and use 160mm eyepieces and 170mm with a spacer/collar?
In principle it can be done, the mechanical tube difference is 8mm. First be sure that the part that fits in the microscope is the same. But that eyepieces are not rare, better wait for they to appear.
How do the above eyepieces compare to the non-threaded KPL W 8X or MF Objektiv 4:1 for image quality paired with NPL objectives?
KPl are Zeiss and they make more compensation than Leitz (almost twice!), so they work but aren't very adequate.
I think you're referring to Zeiss Jena MF projektiv . They are projective eyepieces, meant to be used without camera lens, but 4X is way too high total relay magnification, I have no experience with them but I've been told that the compensation amount is similar to Zeiss West.

For cross pol you need two good polarizers: one under the sample and another one (called analyzer) placed between the objective and the eyepiece. The easier locations are under the condenser, over the field diaphragm or light source and for the analyzer if the microscope has not the adequate slot, just dropped between the trinocular head and the microscope frame if there is enough room like almost for sure is. Although is nice to have both rotatable you really only need to have one rotatable, the substage polarizer in most cases.
Camera polarizers do work but in many cases thy induce a strong blue cast when crossed.

I never would have recommended those SM Lux.They are solid well build scopes but the focusing system is weird and in some cases inconvenient*: the single focus knob acts both for macrometric and micrometric (coarse and fine) both when inverting the sense of rotation
* like high magnification with very short WD objectives and mainly for focus stacking
Pau

orangetang
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Re: Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

Post by orangetang »

Great information, thank you.
Pau wrote:In principle it can be done, the mechanical tube difference is 8mm. First be sure that the part that fits in the microscope is the same. But that eyepieces are not rare, better wait for they to appear.
Does the alternative to instead use the 160mm adapter with a 160mm eyepiece stand as a viable alternative? The 160mm eyepieces appear to be more common and likely of lesser age so they may also be in better condition in general. As I understand it, the optics between the two are indistinguishable.

I'll likely wait to see the scope(s) in person to confirm this head will be usable do some measurements to see if the adapters will fit.
Pau wrote:KPl are Zeiss and they make more compensation than Leitz (almost twice!), so they work but aren't very adequate.

I think you're referring to Zeiss Jena MF projektiv . They are projective eyepieces, meant to be used without camera lens, but 4X is way too high total relay magnification, I have no experience with them but I've been told that the compensation amount is similar to Zeiss West.
You're correct. I've read all of this information already and have circled back around to it for a 2nd time somehow. I'll pass completely on the Zeiss eyepieces and focus on the finding an appropriate Leitz with the correct compensation.
For cross pol you need two good polarizers: one under the sample and another one (called analyzer) placed between the objective and the eyepiece. The easier locations are under the condenser, over the field diaphragm or light source and for the analyzer if the microscope has not the adequate slot, just dropped between the trinocular head and the microscope frame if there is enough room like almost for sure is. Although is nice to have both rotatable you really only need to have one rotatable, the substage polarizer in most cases.

Camera polarizers do work but in many cases thy induce a strong blue cast when crossed.
Dropping a filter into the frame under the head is exactly what I was hoping would be possible. I wasn't sure there was a sufficient ID reduction inside that would allow this or not. I was only expecting to be able to rotate the analyser.
Pau wrote:I never would have recommended those SM Lux.They are solid well build scopes but the focusing system is weird and in some cases inconvenient*: the single focus knob acts both for macrometric and micrometric (coarse and fine) both when inverting the sense of rotation
* like high magnification with very short WD objectives and mainly for focus stacking
Well that's less than ideal news. I do intend to use focus stacking. Time will tell if this will prove to be a problem or not. There are not a lot of threads specifically about the SM-LUX scope but what I found seemed to be positive and the discussion about setting one up for a 4/3 camera didn't mention such issues unfortunately.

If the optical performance of the scope is acceptable and any focus quirks become an annoyance perhaps transferring the equipment to a stand from a compatable Leitz model with proper focus mechanism could be a solution.

Is the Dialux the better platform to go with in your opinion? When looking for a used Leitz scope I was attempting to find something with planar optics and an overall good condition. Not knowing what is good or not, I felt Leitz 170 NPL objectives are likely fine for my purposes and offer good enough edge to edge focus, and there is the option to use newer 160mm Leitz objectives if not.

Pau
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Re: Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

Post by Pau »

Here you can download the manual:
www.science-info.net/docs/leitz/Leitz-S ... ctions.pdf
It explains the focus procedure and also the location of the polarizer and analyzer. It happens that I have both (bought for another use not being aware of the original intended model)
Pau

orangetang
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Re: Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

Post by orangetang »

I have burned through that manual as well as found some for the dialux, dialux 20, various orthoplans and others. Also a service manual for the SM-LUX-POL which will hopefully carry over for some maintenance and repairs on the SM-LUX. It looks like a very specific size of filter will need to sit under the head as the instructions seem to require the assembly head to be fully rotated down to locate the alignment pin. I feel the head then must seat into the polarizer instead of the assembly head, might that be the case?

The proper 400/600 compatible filter holder that clamps to the condenser must be the 513 088 model number listed in the instruction manual and this historic pricing list (page 14)

A question for all of you about the phototubes... There appear to be four options on the market, two have been covered in good detail here already. The 170mm and 160mm tubes that both have the thin ring approximately halfway up the body, and then two others that have an elongated ring and appear to be in a greater overall length, both for TL160.

Does anyone have experience with these? They appear to be made for the camera adapter sleeve that clamps over these phototubes with the thread on lens above. Photo below.

I'm specifically asking about the tube on the right, as there are a lot of them for sale alone or with a periplan 10x eyepiece, on occasion the incorrect one. I may order one just to experiment with if nobody has experience with any of them. I'm wondering if they're for the same 160TL as the other adapter and also taller if the eyepiece would sit recessed into the adapter instead of at the top of it.
s-l1600.jpg
Models:
543698: Marked with 10x/18 glasses (519749)
376102: Marked with GF 12.5x AND 10x glasses (519740)
376110: Marked with GF 12.5x AND 10x glasses (519740) - this one may be a PN typo on the sellers behalf as I couldn't find an actual photo of the numbering.

Pau
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Re: Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

Post by Pau »

It looks like a very specific size of filter will need to sit under the head as the instructions seem to require the assembly head to be fully rotated down to locate the alignment pin. I feel the head then must seat into the polarizer instead of the assembly head, might that be the case?
Maybe if you need it to be precisely fixed you could need it, but I'm pretty sure that you don't need this specific parts.
If you don't put the threaded adapter you will have lots of room to just drop a bigger round analyzer inside the microscope arm upper part over the objectives and under the trino head. I've done it with many microscopes mainly Olympus clones and Zeiss West
Anyway, if after having and studying your scopes you feel that you imperatively need those parts, drop me a PM, I have two of each.
The condenser polarizer seems more abundant and so easier to find at Ebay
Pau

orangetang
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Re: Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

Post by orangetang »

I will do, I appreciate it.

houstontx
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Re: Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

Post by houstontx »

I have one of these photo tube assemblies for sale with the correct 10x eyepiece (red dot) if you are interested I can send some pics.

orangetang
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Re: Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

Post by orangetang »

I appreciate the offer but have already ordered a pair of eyepieces and phototube from eBay a couple of hours ago.

orangetang
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Re: Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

Post by orangetang »

A couple of days ago I stumbled upon two 3D models to print for this scope. There is a chance neither will work/fit so I'll post my results when they arrive. I couldn't find the parent threads for these parts on this forum to pass credit, but there is a thread on microbehunter that shows Bogdan as the designer of the Leitz LK condenser filter drawer system for Laborlux. Great work Bogdan!

The first part I found is an Analyzer for Leitz SM-Lux Microscope. The part looks like it is intended to be used slightly differently than the factory part. According to the instruction manual the standard Leitz analyzer sits over the assembly tube on the locking collar and aligns on a locating pin.
smluxanalyzer.gif
The 3D printed part however appears to thread in. Maybe it replaces the assembly tube or locking collar, or just drops in position. Regardless it looks to be a great little piece, with a retaining collar to hold in a ~20-21mm linear polarizer. I used an online viewer to guestimate the dimensions as I don't have any 3D Cad software. This analyzer was designed by Christoph Sitter and again I wasn't able to find a parent thread on this part.
24f8371482b21bad540732e3f1159067_preview_featured.jpg


The other part is the first mentioned, Leitz LK condenser filter drawer system. The design belongs to Bogdan Alecsa and I tracked that one back to a thread on MicrobeHunter.com. I have no idea if this unit will be compatible with my 601 condenser or not. The shape of the condenser in the photo looks to be of similar shape but perhaps not, while a google/ebay search of 'laborlux condenser' does show some 600 series in occasional photos. The photo on the 3D Model page appears to be a standard 513547 or 513474 (SK) condenser for a later Dialux 20/Laborlux 20 (or even later model Laborlux/Ergolux/Dialux) in a ~562223 holder. I've found information on the SK and UK condensers but zero mention of an "LK" as described. I'm still researching this. For the small cost of printing, this is worth a try. The unit takes 32mm OD x 28mm ID filters.
122143197_3687359424616111_2719736806550822950_o.jpg
I have ~20% hope that the filter holder will be useful to me and ~80% hope that the analyzer will be. To finish these off I ordered some custom cut 20mm and 32mm linear polarized glass filters off eBay - just polarized glass (no ring) and possibly just stick on film... . I'm sure the quality of these will be highly questionable, but it will be interesting to try.

Pau
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Re: Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

Post by Pau »

Despite being a cool idea I don't find the drawer polarizer holder very convenient because it lacks a fundamental feature: allowing the polarizer to be easily and precisely rotatable. It doesn't need to be placed just under the condenser, a polarizer just over the illuminated field is easier to work with

Even cheap and questionable quality polarizers when crossed can produce spectacular results for observation of anisotropic crystals and other materials. Of course higher quality ones can produce better results but often not by a so big difference if you just want to get nice colors in crystals.
Pau

orangetang
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Re: Afocal Leica SM-LUX Project

Post by orangetang »

Agreed on the ability to rotate easily. Since ordering a 20mm I figured an extra 32mm wouldn't hurt. Might try the holder with some Rheinberg, oblique, color or darkfield filters if it will clamp on.

Hoping to keep the polarizer on the lamp.

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