Electronic Shutter and Flash

[DavyC]

Putting an indoor rig together, Auto rail, cage, camera and flash lighting.
Thought to try a stack without everything in place.

Wanted to go with camera electronic shutter, firing flash units. I did not realise,
like most cameras out there, flash is not supported with electronic shutter.
I know that some have rolled their own fix to circumvent the camera restriction,
by delaying flash to enable full frame capture.
Not sure it’s worth the effort trying this, or whether to just go with continuous lighting.

Camera is mirrorless Fuji XT-20, Auto rail is no longer supported (Murzins, made in Belgium) Flash units are Godox TT350f.

Glad to hear views/opinions.

[FotoChris]

I've been trying to do the same thing with my setup.

It's tricky. First you have to find out how long the exposure duration during electronic shutter use is. As you probably noticed it's considerably long. Then you have to find a way to time it and time the delay so that the flash fires during that exposure duration when the whole sensor is read. If that is even possible... which I'm not 100% sure.

In theory I could use the MJKZZ controller with a set flash delay (triggered via cable) - but I've not been very successful - for now. All I know so far is that my camera takes 250ms for one electronic shutter exposure, that' 1/4s (very long) but I'm not sure what delay timing to set. I'll probably have to try a lot of possible settings

viewtopic.php?p=283506

Maybe this could be helpful as well:

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 054#223054

Looks like triggering the flash during the middle of the exposure time of the ES should illuminate the whole image - so in my case the ES takes 250ms to finish reading the sensor lines which would make it a 125ms delay between shutter and flash trigger.

[rjlittlefield]

DavyC, My Canon R7 does not support flash with full electronic shutter, but it does support flash with electronic first curtain, mechanical second.

If your camera has that capability, then I suggest to work with that for a while to see if it meets your needs.

I am one of the people with a DIY solution, as outlined at viewtopic.php?t=13726. I originally built it for use with Canon T1i, which did not provide flash trigger with electronic first curtain. Now I use it with my R7. It works fine, subject to shutter speed limitations caused by variability in the camera's timing of shutter trigger versus shutter action, documented at viewtopic.php?f=8&t=45281 .

Because I already have the flash delay device, I use it regularly to shoot deep stacks with fully electronic shutter. But the device took a lot of hours to get working totally reliably, so if I had started with the R7, I think it would not have been worth the trouble.

Of course a lot depends on your facility and fondness with electronics.

--Rik

[DavyC]

Rik, My Fuji XT-20 is similar in that it too has the electronic/mechanical second.
I was just thinking of the wear and tear on a mechanical shutter.

I may have a go at a diy solution. Blow the dust off my test gear!
Good to hear from others in the same boat.

D.

[rjlittlefield]

Then you have to find a way to time it and time the delay so that the flash fires during that exposure duration when the whole sensor is read.

Rephrasing, and adding some detail...

You have to flash after the entire sensor has been cleared, but before any reading starts. Any parts of the sensor that are read before the flash, or cleared after the flash, will not include the flash in their exposure interval.

All I know so far is that my camera takes 250ms for one electronic shutter exposure
...
which would make it a 125ms delay between shutter and flash trigger.

If I'm understanding your "250ms" correctly, then you need more delay than that. You'll need 250 ms delay after start of exposure, to let the last parts of the sensor get cleared (i.e., start exposing), plus more delay and a correspondingly longer shutter time that depends on variation in the camera's timing. See the discussions linked in my previous post.

--Rik

[rjlittlefield]

I may have a go at a diy solution. Blow the dust off my test gear!

I implemented mine using old school methods that involved a 555 timer, an LM324 op-amp, and some discrete components.

If I had to do it over again, I would use it as an opportunity to learn Arduino and take advantage of the increased flexibility to do better triggering using the camera's sound and/or light indicators.

--Rik

[FotoChris]

Then you have to find a way to time it and time the delay so that the flash fires during that exposure duration when the whole sensor is read.

Rephrasing, and adding some detail...

You have to flash after the entire sensor has been cleared, but before any reading starts. Any parts of the sensor that are read before the flash, or cleared after the flash, will not include the flash in their exposure interval.

All I know so far is that my camera takes 250ms for one electronic shutter exposure
...
which would make it a 125ms delay between shutter and flash trigger.

If I'm understanding your "250ms" correctly, then you need more delay than that. You'll need 250 ms delay after start of exposure, to let the last parts of the sensor get cleared (i.e., start exposing), plus more delay and a correspondingly longer shutter time that depends on variation in the camera's timing. See the discussions linked in my previous post.

--Rik

Thank you Rik, that's very helpful!! That explains why my previous attempts have not been successful!

[Adalbert]

Hi DavyC,
I have been using flashes with a full electronic shutter for about 5 years.
My Canon EOS M6 Mark II takes 1/25 s to read data from the chip.
So I can successfully use the exposure time of 1/10 s and trigger the flash slightly out of the middle.
My solution is based on Arduino, but a delay element would do the same job.
Best, ADi

[mjkzz]

for simple things like delay device, use digispark, Attiny 85 based device, it has embedded USB, it gives you (limited) Arduino functionalities, use Arduino dev environment so you can actually hard code delay time and easily change it and upload the new firmware, and best of all, it is small (size of a US quarter), and "bestest" (is that a word), it is cheap

[img = https://cn.bing.com/images/search?view= ... ajaxserp=0]Here is size reference[/img]

[DavyC]

I have been using flashes with a full electronic shutter for about 5 years.

Nice work! In your 5 years with electronic shutter, must have saved you wearing out a camera or two!
D.

[DavyC]

for simple things like delay device, use digispark, Attiny 85 based device, it has embedded USB

I have seen this used with additional circuitry for similar control.
I would need some sort of guide with this, especially programming, as I have no experience with that.

Cool that this tiny package can pack a punch.
Thanks for that!
D.

[mjkzz]

for simple things like delay device, use digispark, Attiny 85 based device, it has embedded USB

I have seen this used with additional circuitry for similar control.
I would need some sort of guide with this, especially programming, as I have no experience with that.

Cool that this tiny package can pack a punch.
Thanks for that!
D.

I will make it an open source project and post it here, along with PCB, etc.

[Adalbert]

I have been using flashes with a full electronic shutter for about 5 years.

Nice work! In your 5 years with electronic shutter, must have saved you wearing out a camera or two!
D.

Hi,
yes, I have just checked and realized that
I have already taken almost 240 thousand photos.
All with the full electronic shutter,
except for some test shots with
the mechanical shutter in automatic mode.
Best, ADi

[DavyC]

I will make it an open source project and post it here, along with PCB, etc.

Cool! Thanks for that.

[DavyC]

I have just checked and realized that
I have already taken almost 240 thousand photos.
All with the full electronic shutter,

Only 240,000, Yikes!