New Mitutoyo apo 10x

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Macro_Cosmos
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Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

Chris S. wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:44 pm
(FYI, the "-2" I'm referring to is indicated on the objective canister, you can see it suffixed to the model number, -2 is the second version. Newest versions have the -3 tag".
While the canister clearly does say "-2", it also appears to say "5x" (though it's fuzzy in the image). If so, this is not the original canister--so leanderborg220, you may want to check the model number on the back side of the objective, to see if it is the "-2" version or the "-3" version.
Good observation, I missed that!
It's the -2 version because of the protruding black rim. The -3 versions mostly have the silver housing covering the entire objective. I don't think there's image quality differences among the 2 versions. My rationale is rather simple. The -3 version likely saw less shelf life than the -2 version, which could be over 10 years old.
Image
It is clearly not new. From the first photo in the listing, there's blemishes on the letter "M".
I think $100 is fair, that's why I said $200. Always start with a higher value in negotiation. It's obviously unfair to invoke this due to buyer's remorse/regret, but the member was sold a used lens claimed to be new.

Moreover, look carefully at the photos in the 4th post. The third one shows dots along the edge of the internal optics. This is a dire sign of delamination, indicating the objective likely have seen harsh and prolonged use, or wasn't stored properly. An objective in such a condition, unless I've tested to make sure it has zero affect, I will sell for $300 as parts.

Macrero
Posts: 888
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:17 am
Location: Valladolid , Spain

Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Macrero »

It is already clear that the objective has delamination (as seen in the video). So partial refund is no longer an option. Mitutoyo objectives are irreparable. The OP just has to return it for a full refund.

I meant if the unit were perfect optically and the only issue were that it is not new, as advertised. In such case trying to get $200 "partial" refund would be excessive and unfair IMO, given that $440 is more than fair price for this objective in good used condition.

The problem is that the vast majority of sellers who sell those objectives on the second-hand market are liquidators who have little to no idea what they are selling. They most likely take a look at the front and rear elements and if they don't see obvious scratches or flaws they list the objective as "In good/EX/mint working condition. Pulled from working machine/microscope...", etc. And what you get is a Kinder Surprise...
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

Macro_Cosmos
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:23 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

Welp, looks like I got something fun with my 10x as well.

Poor cemented doublet.
delam.png
Look at those dots!
delam22.png
This is from Yahui, a prevalent Chinese surplus dealer, the biggest in fact. This should be a cautionary tale to anyone who wants to have a lucky dip at those ebay listing thieves, as 90% of the objectives are from this company.

For how much I paid, it was market price for something mint. It's clearly not mint, having these icky glue dots.

Their boss is an absolute (redacted), some employees however are really nice. I avoid dealing through their boss and go straight to the employees.
Anyhow, will have to test this, I'll either return it if it doesn't work, or keep it (if it does and outperforms my fluorites) and never visit again.

Macrero
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Location: Valladolid , Spain

Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Macrero »

That's a shame. Is that the -3 version? If it is, that would be bad news, I thought the issue was limited to the version -2. It is hard to see in the pics, but if the spotting is on the periphery only, as it seems, it should still perform well and I'd say outperforming your Fluors. Let us know how it does when you test it.

Sadly, buying Mitutoyo objectives on the second-hand market is a kind of lottery. The last one I bought was a 20X which was listed as "new" and actually looked unused, in its original case and box. Yet it had a delaminated doublet... I currently own the 7.5X only and I'm increasingly more reluctant about buying used (or even listed as NOS/new) Mitutoyo objectives.
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

Macro_Cosmos
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:23 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

Macrero wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:02 am
That's a shame. Is that the -3 version? If it is, that would be bad news, I thought the issue was limited to the version -2. It is hard to see in the pics, but if the spotting is on the periphery only, as it seems, it should still perform well and I'd say outperforming your Fluors. Let us know how it does when you test it.

Sadly, buying Mitutoyo objectives on the second-hand market is a kind of lottery. The last one I bought was a 20X which was listed as "new" and actually looked unused, in its original case and box. Yet it had a delaminated doublet... I currently own the 7.5X only and I'm increasingly more reluctant about buying used (or even listed as NOS/new) Mitutoyo objectives.
Nope, it's more unforgivable than that. If it's a mit, then fair enough. I've handled -3 versions with delamination too, I'm not sure if it's exclusive to -2 and older versions. Even if there's a correlation, it can be entirely attributed to age, as -2 can be a dozen years old compared to -3 which maybe 3 or 5 years old. Hence, because the -3 is newer, it saw less use, thus it's free from the issues. That's my rationale I enlisted in a previous post.

As for this 10x, it's an Olympus, UIS2 objective! That said, I'm somewhat optimistic on the image quality, that 100x I bought with dots worked just fine, outperforming my achromat but trailing behind the Apo as expected. I have some free time, will test it and report back.

Macrero
Posts: 888
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Location: Valladolid , Spain

Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Macrero »

Macro_Cosmos wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:55 am
Nope, it's more unforgivable than that. If it's a mit, then fair enough. I've handled -3 versions with delamination too, I'm not sure if it's exclusive to -2 and older versions. Even if there's a correlation, it can be entirely attributed to age, as -2 can be a dozen years old compared to -3 which maybe 3 or 5 years old. Hence, because the -3 is newer, it saw less use, thus it's free from the issues. That's my rationale I enlisted in a previous post.

As for this 10x, it's an Olympus, UIS2 objective! That said, I'm somewhat optimistic on the image quality, that 100x I bought with dots worked just fine, outperforming my achromat but trailing behind the Apo as expected. I have some free time, will test it and report back.
Yeah, it might be age-related issue, which is not very reassuring though, rather the opposite.

I've never had a delaminated Oly or Nikon objective, though there was an Oly LMPlanFl N 10/0.25 which was (apparently) optically and cosmetically flawless, but resolution was very poor and image was blurry. Probably misalignment.
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

adamski
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:36 am

Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by adamski »

Guys, this in not just delamination but the glass is permanently etched and you won't able to repair it. I have exactly same 10x Mity with exact same problem. I decided to have a go and repair it, which I did but the damage is permanent. Those dots are etched in the glass so even if you replace the cement the dots will not go away.

Scarodactyl
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Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Scarodactyl »

Oof. That suggests fungal action, maybe?

leanderborg220
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:53 am

Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by leanderborg220 »

This is the picture that I attached for the return refund

Could this happen due to light intensity / temperature of the light passing through the objective?
Attachments
delamination.png

adamski
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:36 am

Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by adamski »

Have you consider keeping this objective if significant partial refund is offered? I personally would ask for 50% refund and keep it. I am sure this objective is still a great performer even with those annoying spots. Just a thought.

palaephatus
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Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:47 pm

Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by palaephatus »

The point about the objective having been subjected to high light flux/temperature may be a good explanation, Mitutoyo sells the Finescope 70 for both inspection and for laser cutting (1064, 532, 355 and 266nm, depending on the head) (https://www.mitutoyo.com/wp-content/upl ... 9_FS70.pdf).

Could it be, that the objective has been used for cutting - the normal M Plan is an order of magnitude cheaper than the UV M Plan - and that the light flux has caused damage in points where the interface between optical surfaces has been slightly more absorbing than the rest?

I don't know how to verify this, and counting against the explanation is that the damage seems uniform and not e.g. gaussian in shape. Thorlabs has some qualitative discussion of this under the tab "Damage Thresholds" in the "High Power Microspot Focusing Objectives..." category.

Macro_Cosmos
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Location: Sydney

Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

Ok... that looks worse. I think Adamski is right here. For delamination, an angle like this shouldn't have any observable dots.
Macrero wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:08 am
I've never had a delaminated Oly or Nikon objective, though there was an Oly LMPlanFl N 10/0.25 which was (apparently) optically and cosmetically flawless, but resolution was very poor and image was blurry. Probably misalignment.
Yep, those objectives tend to be really robust. Ones with fungus/delamination is pretty rare, it would be used in an unimaginably harsh environment for something like that to creep up.

leanderborg220
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:53 am

Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by leanderborg220 »

adamski wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:25 am
Have you consider keeping this objective if significant partial refund is offered? I personally would ask for 50% refund and keep it. I am sure this objective is still a great performer even with those annoying spots. Just a thought.
Was refunded 75% and kept the lens. We will see how it will perform later. :?

leanderborg220
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:53 am

Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by leanderborg220 »

Macro_Cosmos wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:55 am
Macrero wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:02 am
As for this 10x, it's an Olympus, UIS2 objective! That said, I'm somewhat optimistic on the image quality, that 100x I bought with dots worked just fine, outperforming my achromat but trailing behind the Apo as expected. I have some free time, will test it and report back.
If you test your lens which seems to have the same problem please let me know how it performs

Macro_Cosmos
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:23 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

leanderborg220 wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:56 am
If you test your lens which seems to have the same problem please let me know how it performs
Here's my test: https://macrocosmosblog.wordpress.com/2 ... ng-plague/

To sum everything up, I don't see an issue. I'm still going to ask for a small refund, it was passed off as optically clear. However knowing the company, and likely the person I dealt with has to ask his :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: head of a boss, it's likely either return it at your own cost or the middle finger. They lose what could be a customer that is interested in a full fluorescence setup in that case. Doesn't matter to them of course, their prime targets are small enterprises, not some grumpy guy from an upside-down country.

75% refund, that's great. If it works and the images are alright, it's a pretty solid deal.
Are you able to get that massive 180 euros of VAT partially refunded too? You paid $110 for the objective, 180 euros in customs is just plain robbery in this case.

I will add in the [1] footnote late too, going to bed now.

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