New Mitutoyo apo 10x

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leanderborg220
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Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by leanderborg220 »

At this stage I will keep it and then we will see what the results are after I get all my setup, but it will be notime soon as I have lots of gear still to buy. The worst case scenario is that I threw 570euro down the drain.
Just in case if there is somebody from Malta reading this and have a similar setup then I would appreciate if he can contact me, maybe I can hand it it to him and have this lens tested.

Macro_Cosmos
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Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

Lou Jost wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:52 am
The thing that was special about that wafer was the test patterns. That's what we most need to make this useful. I hope we can find something like that again. B+W makes some, and I bought one from a forum member; maybe that is an option for some of us.
What does B+W make that's relevant to the context here? I'm afraid I might not be on the same wavelength. I didn't quite get that.
leanderborg220 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:52 pm
At this stage I will keep it and then we will see what the results are after I get all my setup, but it will be notime soon as I have lots of gear still to buy. The worst case scenario is that I threw 570euro down the drain.
Just in case if there is somebody from Malta reading this and have a similar setup then I would appreciate if he can contact me, maybe I can hand it it to him and have this lens tested.
You should negotiate a big partial refund. Get that seller to refund at least $200 or else open a case.

This objective is clearly not new, even the first image of the listing indicates it's not new. 570 euros is a lot, which includes tax so fair enough. To put it into perspective, I sold my purchased new first hand 10x, newer "-3" version with the box invoice and papers for 600 USD to someone here, which is ~520 euros. I even included an adaptor that would have been $20. With VAT and shipping, probably 700 or 750? I think the extra ~200 euros or so is worth it for a guaranteed to work, packed to the brim by someone with a boxing/unboxing obsession... It's a known working copy that has been taken care of, I could have listed it as new open box for $800 and it probably will sell. I have integrity though.

I'm sorry to say, I think you got screwed over. Even if it might 100% optically perfect which I hope it is, you should argue for a partial refund. However, being a "-2" version implies that it has been out there for longer times. I don't know when Mit renewed their model numbers and reworked the housing, someone else can chime in.

(FYI, the "-2" I'm referring to is indicated on the objective canister, you can see it suffixed to the model number, -2 is the second version. Newest versions have the -3 tag".

leanderborg220
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Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by leanderborg220 »

Macro_Cosmos wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:15 pm
Lou Jost wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:52 am
The thing that was special about that wafer was the test patterns. That's what we most need to make this useful. I hope we can find something like that again. B+W makes some, and I bought one from a forum member; maybe that is an option for some of us.
What does B+W make that's relevant to the context here? I'm afraid I might not be on the same wavelength. I didn't quite get that.
leanderborg220 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:52 pm
At this stage I will keep it and then we will see what the results are after I get all my setup, but it will be notime soon as I have lots of gear still to buy. The worst case scenario is that I threw 570euro down the drain.
Just in case if there is somebody from Malta reading this and have a similar setup then I would appreciate if he can contact me, maybe I can hand it it to him and have this lens tested.
You should negotiate a big partial refund. Get that seller to refund at least $200 or else open a case.

This objective is clearly not new, even the first image of the listing indicates it's not new. 570 euros is a lot, which includes tax so fair enough. To put it into perspective, I sold my purchased new first hand 10x, newer "-3" version with the box invoice and papers for 600 USD to someone here, which is ~520 euros. I even included an adaptor that would have been $20. With VAT and shipping, probably 700 or 750? I think the extra ~200 euros or so is worth it for a guaranteed to work, packed to the brim by someone with a boxing/unboxing obsession... It's a known working copy that has been taken care of, I could have listed it as new open box for $800 and it probably will sell. I have integrity though.

I'm sorry to say, I think you got screwed over. Even if it might 100% optically perfect which I hope it is, you should argue for a partial refund. However, being a "-2" version implies that it has been out there for longer times. I don't know when Mit renewed their model numbers and reworked the housing, someone else can chime in.

(FYI, the "-2" I'm referring to is indicated on the objective canister, you can see it suffixed to the model number, -2 is the second version. Newest versions have the -3 tag".
You know. That`s what I`m going to do. It should not have been listed as new first off all. I just asked him for more information regarding the origin of this objective. I`ll see what he replies and start from there.

Lou Jost
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Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Lou Jost »

The thing that was special about that wafer was the test patterns. That's what we most need to make this useful. I hope we can find something like that again. B+W makes some, and I bought one from a forum member; maybe that is an option for some of us.
What does B+W make that's relevant to the context here? I'm afraid I might not be on the same wavelength. I didn't quite get that.
Wafers with test patterns.

Chris S.
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Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Chris S. »

(FYI, the "-2" I'm referring to is indicated on the objective canister, you can see it suffixed to the model number, -2 is the second version. Newest versions have the -3 tag".
While the canister clearly does say "-2", it also appears to say "5x" (though it's fuzzy in the image). If so, this is not the original canister--so leanderborg220, you may want to check the model number on the back side of the objective, to see if it is the "-2" version or the "-3" version.

This noted, I'm not sure it matters. The auction specifies that the item may not be in original packaging. And optically, the "-2", "-3", and other versions of this lens behave so similarly that I've never found repeatable differences in testing.

Leanderborg220, in your fourth picture of this lens, there are what may be scratches on the end of the lens barrel, at about the 11:00 position as pictured. Are those indeed scratches, or some illusion created by the light? They will have absolutely no impact on performance of this lens, but might be indications of use.

This said, the auction conditions may or may not allow for scratches. Clicking the question mark beside "Condition: New other (see details):" Brings up a paragraph that includes "The item may be a factory second (i.e. it has a small flaw that does not affect the operation of the item such as a scratch or dent)." While I doubt that Mitutoyo sells factory seconds of its lenses, such scratches would indeed not affect the operation of the item.

Someone will surely chime in that eBay strongly favors the buyer, and that sellers are so harmed by negative feedback that they are at the buyers' mercy. Both are true, but blackmailing sellers is despicable. If this lens shows clear signs of use but was sold as new, a request for price adjustment is reasonable. But if it's just buyer's remorse, such a request is wrong.

For whatever it's worth, this lens was fairly priced for a used lens in good condition. The US version of this listing says $440 USD. That's about right for a good second-hand Mitty 10x, here in the US where this lens was sold. (They sell for $900 new.) Asking for $200 back is way too much.

--Chris S.

Macrero
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Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Macrero »

I agree with everything Chris S. said in this thread. E-buying lenses / objectives always involves risk. The risk is higher in the case of Mitutoyo objectives, since they are very delicate optics.

I've owned quite a few Mitutoyo objectives over the years and I can confirm cosmetic condition is not a reliable indicator. I've tested objectives with pretty horrible appearance which performed perfectly and also minty looking units which turned out to perform poorly. You won't know how the objective is going to perform until you test it.

But yeah, even then you should know what the output of a flawless optics should be, you should have tested other objectives or have a reference unit. That's in case you wanna make sure the objective you've bought is performing at 100%. If you have experience with 10X objectives and after testing the Mitty you get sharp, clean, aberrations-free image with no obvious issues, I'd say keep it and use it to take some nice photos and don't obsess with either it is performing at 100, 98 or 95%.

The first thing I thought when I saw the photos was: That objective is not new. I highly doubt the seller knows the full history of the objective and I think it's not right to list an item as "new/unused" just because it looks minty.

Now, that said, IMHO asking for almost half the list price partial refund would be abusive and unfair. If that objective were yours would you sell it for $ 240 + shipping? Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you.

Best,

- Macrero
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

leanderborg220
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Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:53 am

Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by leanderborg220 »

Chris S. wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:44 pm
(FYI, the "-2" I'm referring to is indicated on the objective canister, you can see it suffixed to the model number, -2 is the second version. Newest versions have the -3 tag".
This noted, I'm not sure it matters. The auction specifies that the item may not be in original packaging. And optically, the "-2", "-3", and other versions of this lens behave so similarly that I've never found repeatable differences in testing.

Leanderborg220, in your fourth picture of this lens, there are what may be scratches on the end of the lens barrel, at about the 11:00 position as pictured. Are those indeed scratches, or some illusion created by the light? They will have absolutely no impact on performance of this lens, but might be indications of use.


--Chris S.
Yes canister is of the 5x. no problem it is just a canister. Re scratches, yes there are little scratches, and these surely indicate signs of use as you noted but ok these are tiny.

However now I looked closer through the front element and using some diffused light source on the background then these dots are way more visible. At this point I`m really concerned regarding the quality of the optics. I do not think that Mitutoyo have such standards.
Can you please confirm if your Mitu objectives have such thing, Maybe it was disassembled unprofessionally?
Please have a look at it, I just uploaded it as an unlisted YouTube video as the clip file was too large to upload here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJkCzf_h6BY

I just opened a dispute case on ebay.

Macrero
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Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Macrero »

Return it. That's a spotting-like delamination on an internal doublet, sadly pretty typical of Mitutoyo "series 2" objectives. I've had at least two 20X with that issue, one of them was NOS/unused.
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

leanderborg220
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Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:53 am

Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by leanderborg220 »

Macrero wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:03 am
Return it. That's a spotting-like delamination on an internal doublet, sadly pretty typical of Mitutoyo "series 2" objectives. I've had at least two 20X with that issue, one of them was NOS/unused.
Yep I suspected that it was not dust inside but a delamination issue. Delamination happens by use and abuse not on the shelf!
I opened a case on ebay to return it .
Will let you know how it goes ! Many thanks Macrero

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Scarodactyl
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Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Scarodactyl »

Yeah, that's definitely not good to see. Another good reason everyone should own a* stereo microscope, since you'd be able to make out the finer details of that pretty readily.



*by 'a' I mean 'a half dozen'

Lou Jost
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Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Lou Jost »

Delamination happens by use and abuse not on the shelf!
I had thought that delamination is a fairly passive thing that just happens by itself to some kinds of lenses. It is common in some kinds of lenses and unheard-of in others, seemingly due to different materials used. I thought it could indeed happen with a new lens that has done nothing but sit on a shelf. Aside from extreme temperature changes, what actions by the user would cause it?

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Scarodactyl
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Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Scarodactyl »

I have been trying to separste a couple doublets out of a Nikon stereo. They're not delaminated per se, but they developed tiny bubbles as well as crystals in the lens cement which did no good to the image. These spots are remjniscent od thr crystals I saw but it'd be hard to say without a closer look.
No idea why that would happen. I once got crystal growth in some epoxy I ser myself and attributed it to improper mixing.

Macrero
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Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Macrero »

A lens can delaminate without being used. One of the causes of lens delamination is manufacturing issues. Improper storage, exposure to some chemicals and their vapors are other possible causes.
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

leanderborg220
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Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by leanderborg220 »

Macrero wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:41 am
A lens can delaminate without being used. One of the causes of lens delamination is manufacturing issues. Improper storage, exposure to some chemicals and their vapors are other possible causes.
It is much more likely that the user stores it improperly rather then factory stores their manufactured lenses where they are prone to delamination.

Macrero
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Re: New Mitutoyo apo 10x

Post by Macrero »

leanderborg220 wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:32 pm
It is much more likely that the user stores it improperly rather then factory stores their manufactured lenses where they are prone to delamination.
I was not referring to factory storage, which I don't doubt is adequate, but to issues in the manufacturing process, type of optical adhesive used, bad aging, etc. Not to bash Mitutoyo, but I have owned and seen too many Mitutoyo objectives with that same issue, which is a shame for such brillant optics.

Btw, the delaminated Mitty objectives (at least those I owned) are still quite usable. The biggest impact is on contrast, image is kinda hazy and lacks contrast, but resolution is not too seriously impacted and color correction is not noticeably affected. Still much better than any Achro ELWD.
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

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