24MP "only" FF camera with Pixel-Shift

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Macrero
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24MP "only" FF camera with Pixel-Shift

Post by Macrero »

So, I am planning to get a FF camera with Pixel Shift. I'm trying to decide between the Panny S1R and the S1. Their prices on the second-hand market are surprisingly close, but price is not the only factor to consider.

My "problem" with the "R" is the enormous RAW and tiff files. Processing pixel shift stacks will end up frying my poor PC, and I'm not willing to spend $$$ on a new PC. I don't need 187MP files either.

Unfortunately, there are no much pixel-shift RAWs online to play with, I played with the ones from the usual source (DPR). Truth be told, I take their tests with a grain of salt, but as expected, the S1R clearly outresolves the S1 in both modes. The R file downsampled to 96 MP still looks better.

I tried to export the 187MP RAW at 100MP with Capture One, and again, it looks clearly better than the S1. C1 exports the files reasonably fast, so I could stack 100MP tiffs, which would speed up Zerene's work and put less stress on the PC.

Now, these tests and results are not transferable to "our kind" of photography. On FF I rarely work below 4X. At 4X even with a 4/0.20 objective I am working at f/10 effective. With pixel-shift the S1 effective pixel pitch is 2.97 microns (5.94 ÷ 2). In theory that's small enough for 4X+ magnification. So I wonder if there would really be much of a difference between the S1 and the S1R at 96MP :-k

Best,

- Macrero
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

Lou Jost
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Re: 24MP "only" FF camera with Pixel-Shift

Post by Lou Jost »

I have the S1R and though I don't use the pixel shift very often, I really like to have it there when I want it. My computer is old but manages the stacks, though slowly.

Macrero
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Re: 24MP "only" FF camera with Pixel-Shift

Post by Macrero »

Lou,

the thing is I would use it in normal mode for tests and comparisons only and in HR for "serious" work, as I do with the G9. That's why I wonder if it's worth it getting a S1R instead of S1, considering that I work mostly at 4X+ mag's and I will end up downsampling the S1R files to about 100MP, I just don't need more, so I see no need to make my PC suffer.

One possible advantage would be less noise, but I don't think noise/SNR would be an issue with the S1, and even less in controlled, studio environment, working with pixel-shift at base ISO.

Btw, I recall reading you had a problem with triggering the camera with the controller. Can't find the thread now. How did you solve it?

- Macrero
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

Macro_Cosmos
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Re: 24MP "only" FF camera with Pixel-Shift

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

An S1R with a 24-105mm kit lens recently ended for $2200, that's an incredible price for what this machine offers. I've seen S1R bodies end for below $2000! I assume that 24-105mm F4 can be sold for a solid $400-600.
As you've stated, S1 and S1R prices, used, are surprisingly close.

Does the S1R offer a downsampled mode? It has a 45MP sensor, maybe it offers 30 or 24MP modes (not cropped)? I'm sure Lou can answer this. I'm still on the fence, I wait to see what Nikon does next.

Macrero
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Re: 24MP "only" FF camera with Pixel-Shift

Post by Macrero »

Prices in Europe are always higher :evil: You can still find a S1R (used) body for less than 2000 EUR though. The S1 is selling used at around 1700 - 1800 :? I can get it brand-new for 1599 on the grey market. Anyway, current difference in prices is not large enough to be a factor.

I don't think there is such feature in the S1R. The best would be to have both cameras and perform a direct comparison with pixel-shift. I'll see if I can rent them for testing.
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

Lou Jost
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Re: 24MP "only" FF camera with Pixel-Shift

Post by Lou Jost »

Btw, I recall reading you had a problem with triggering the camera with the controller. Can't find the thread now. How did you solve it?
I got a simpler Lumix FZ300 remote control and cannibalized that to attach to the WeMacro (Stackshot would be the same with different end socket). I had to modify it as described in this post that you remembered:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=39906&hilit=penny+s1r+remote
It has a 45MP sensor
Minor correction, 47Mp.

Regarding downsampling, there is a crop mode ("tele") for the jpgs, and of course different compression options (about 20Mp versus about 10Mp) for the jpgs. No downsample mode that I know of for the RAW files.

Interesting review:
https://www.focalworld.com/threads/panasonic-s1r.13523/

Macro_Cosmos
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Re: 24MP "only" FF camera with Pixel-Shift

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

Yep, my bad! It's 47MP, I felt a bit off when I typed 45, yeah it was off.

It's possible to get a used copy from the USA. I use shipito, they have special services which allows you to ask them to remove the battery.
You have to put in the declaration yourself, so be honest here. :wink:

That said, the battery might not be cheap, so it might not be worth it. If it gets lost, you're pretty much screwed.

Macrero
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Location: Valladolid , Spain

Re: 24MP "only" FF camera with Pixel-Shift

Post by Macrero »

Lou,

Thanks for the link. Tbh, I don't quite get the process, but I'll try to sort it out when I have the camera.

Interesting review indeed. I am still doubting if the R with pixel-shift would not be an overkill for my needs though. The S1's 96MP pixel-shifted files are more than I need resolution wise. It also has a better DR and SNR. Well, I'll sleep on it...

Macro_Cosmos,

import taxes here in Spain are ridiculously high. For a $2000 camera I would have to pay about $700 taxes. That's just a no-no.
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

Lou Jost
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Re: 24MP "only" FF camera with Pixel-Shift

Post by Lou Jost »

Macrero, even I think that my description of the modification process is confusing. I swear it seemed clear when I wrote it. If you have trouble, when you get the parts I can open my adapter and post a photo.
The S1's 96MP pixel-shifted files are more than I need resolution wise.
But I promise you that you would wish you could get 50Mp res without pixel-shifting. Pixel-shifted stacks are an order of magnitude slower than unshifted ones.

Macro_Cosmos
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Re: 24MP "only" FF camera with Pixel-Shift

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

I believe you do own some very high power objectives, which you also push down for aps-c. I've read some threads and loved the results.
In that case, I do think the 47MP S1R will be beneficial. My objectives are now resolution-limited by the Z6 as I dwell further into photomicroscopy.

Macrero
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Re: 24MP "only" FF camera with Pixel-Shift

Post by Macrero »

Lou Jost wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:07 am
Macrero, even I think that my description of the modification process is confusing. I swear it seemed clear when I wrote it. If you have trouble, when you get the parts I can open my adapter and post a photo.
Thank you, Lou. I will get back to you for help if I am unable to get it right.
Lou Jost wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:07 am
But I promise you that you would wish you could get 50Mp res without pixel-shifting. Pixel-shifted stacks are an order of magnitude slower than unshifted ones.
Macro_Cosmos wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:22 am
I believe you do own some very high power objectives, which you also push down for aps-c. I've read some threads and loved the results.
In that case, I do think the 47MP S1R will be beneficial. My objectives are now resolution-limited by the Z6 as I dwell further into photomicroscopy.
Ok, you convinced me. I'm easy to convince, aren't I? :D I just bought a gently used (cosmetically mint, 7000 clicks) S1R with almost a year of warranty remaining for 1850 EUR shipped. Not a bad price for Europe, I believe.

I know I'm late to the party, but will share my thoughts when I get and test it.

- Macrero
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

Lou Jost
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Re: 24MP "only" FF camera with Pixel-Shift

Post by Lou Jost »

Congratulations, and if I can help you with it, just let me know.

Macrero
Posts: 888
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:17 am
Location: Valladolid , Spain

Re: 24MP "only" FF camera with Pixel-Shift

Post by Macrero »

Lou Jost wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:39 pm
Congratulations, and if I can help you with it, just let me know.
Thanks in advance! I will most likely need your help.
Macro_Cosmos wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:22 am
I believe you do own some very high power objectives, which you also push down for aps-c. I've read some threads and loved the results.
In that case, I do think the 47MP S1R will be beneficial. My objectives are now resolution-limited by the Z6 as I dwell further into photomicroscopy.
I do have some good optics, though image circle/coverage is an evil when it comes to "big" sensors. On MFT I use Nikon S Fluor 4/0.20 (unlikely to cover well the FF sensor), Oly UPlanFl N 10/0.30 (does well on FF), Mitty 7.5/0.21 (no problems here), Mitty 20/0.42 (idem), Oly MPlanFl N 20/0.45 (good on FF), Oly UMPlanFl 50/0.80 (no problem with coverage).

Well, too late to look back, I hope I will share some photos with the Panny soon.

- Best,

- Macrero
https://500px.com/macrero - Amateurs worry about equipment, Pros worry about money, Masters worry about Light

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