Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

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Macro_Cosmos
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Re: Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

pbraub wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:35 pm
https://spectraservices.com/product/U-P802.html This is the KPA it has a mount for the same slider used in the d_re nosepieces.
https://www.scientifica.uk.com/images/analyser.jpg this is the analyser when used in the epi illumination arm (e.g. with u-dicts, hr and hc)
Thanks for the detailed explanation! I appreciate the time put into these posts!
I have a u-dict and a u-ant that goes into the slider coming. Also two prisms, U-DIC100 and U-DIC40. However, I don't have a uis2 objective for them. I do have a uis2 achro 100x oil, Olympus claims it's not compatible, I hope it's just marketing. The 2 100x I have are UIS, so is that really rare 40x oil phase contrast objective, unfortunately. Painful!

I don't plan on doing fluorescence any time soon. I don't know how to stain stuff, prepare slides etc yet. Then again I said I'll never do DIC due to the cost and compatibility headaches... not optimistic.

My setup is your first one. The U-DICT has a U-ANT sitting in it, then the slider sits in the turret. I'm using a U-D6RE.
The condenser I'm using is the U-UCD. I can't find any information on it, I think it's just a renamed BH2-UCD. I have a repair manual from Alan Wood's site, looks very well built. Centring is done via some set screws rather than a couple antenna and it has the earlier film based phase contrast rings. Hope they aren't for BH, I want to sell them to get some money back.

That said, your second one might work for me. I have a U-KMAS simple coaxial illuminator with a U-PO3. The U-PO3 seems to differ in that it is longer? Are they dimensionally the same with same extinction?
Here's a U-KPA with U-ANT, slider, and U-POT if anyone's interested. Not a nasty price, seller accepts offers: eBay item number:233649746538

I actually have this weird DIY intermediate tube that (apparently) works similarly to a U-KPA.
olydiy.jpg

It was very very cheap, like $15. It has a dial on the back where the polariser can be rotated, somehow.

Regarding BFP1, thanks for the insight and your experience. It sort of aligns with my findings. I don't have any UIS2-BF1 objectives. According to the manual, the 100xO, 100xOI (UPlanFL N) and 100xO (UplanSApo) can be used without the U-DICTS. I do plan on adding a UIS2 UplanFL N 40x and 100x to my kit, glad to know it definitely works without the shift prism.

To break down their massive list:
BFP1 UIS2: UplanFL N 40x oil, UplanSApo 60x oil, PlanApoN 60x oil
BFP1 UIS1: UplanApo 40x oil Iris, PlanApo 60x oil, UApo 40x water and oil iris 340nm (these two are UV objectives)

I still can't understand why the 40x and 60x are seen as specials. The 40x UplanFL oil has an NA of 1.4, whereas the UIS Apo is only at 1. Olympus doesn't offer a 40x UPlanSApo oil nor do they have a phase contrast one. They do for UIS though?
For the 60x, I think they are special order types. I do have a chance to buy a new 60x water SApo, it's nearly $3000, not doing it. Ideally I want to find a U-DIC20 next for my 20x uis2.

I had a small exchange with a seller, he turns out to be a retired microscope systems integrator, used to work for Olympus. Here are his input for anyone that's interested.
UIS2 was introduced in 2004 and had an improved glass formulation. It also simplified the number of prisms from 47 to 33. The new glass in UIS2 is brighter and allowed 10x through 40x to have the same Back Focal Plane (BFP). The same BFP allowed over a dozen new UIS2 prisms to use the same prism optics as the older UIS1 glass formulation. We could use over a dozen old prisms with the new UIS2 objectives. So the U-DPA40 will work with 40X apo objectives (both oil and dry and old and new S). You are correct that the U-DP40 is ideal for the UPLFL40x. The U-DPA40 will work with the UPLFL40X but one color wavelength will not be as true as with the U-DP40 prism. Hope that helps.
Your 40X apo phase iris is indeed a rare old bird. It was over 4K back in 2004. Phase objectives will work with DIC but are not ideal. That iris should be open when using it for phase or DIC but closing it a little can help when viewing fluorescence. If you're capturing images and see a faint phase ring on your images you can remove them by using background subtraction in your camera software.
Basically, UIS prisms will work with most UIS2. The opposite however is most likely untrue! One of the reasons why UIS2 allows far better prism compatibility is the improved glass formula allowing objectives to have the same BFP. Colours might be compromised.

Ichthyophthirius
Posts: 1100
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Re: Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

Post by Ichthyophthirius »

Macro_Cosmos wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:20 am
The HR designation in Oly's DIC stuff does not mean high resolution!

For those who are learning like myself, here's their designations for DIC. Do not get fooled by the name just like I did :oops:

[...]

U-DICTHR: For thick specimens, high contrast ones. They have blue text. HR here does not mean high resolution!!! Algae and diatoms fall under this bracket.
Hi,

I don't think you got fooled. HR means high resolution. It is for objects with steep phase gradients, like nematodes, embryos, diatoms and algae. In normal DIC, they would show very high contrast and fine detail is lost in "glare". To mitigate this, HR has a smaller splitting angle, resulting in lower contrast and better preservation of fine detail.

References:
https://www.nikon.com/products/microsco ... /index.htm
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/ ... py-newscom
https://www.mikroskopie-forum.de/index. ... ic=37743.0

Personally, I admire the clarity of the Olympus labelling. Especially since the 90s, the naming and the instructions are very clear - a part with a certain code is always what it is. Older systems from Olympus and other companies had several, sometimes incompatible, generations of DIC systems with either no or identical labelling. On the second hand market you can never be sure of their compatibility. Spare a thought for Zeiss Jena users; they had contrast systems with serial numbers for tubes and sliders - only the components with the identical serial number will work, components with different serial numbers sometimes won't work at all. Olympus users are truely blessed with such clear instructions and compatibilities (that's refected in the high prices).

In any case, I'm curious how your system will come together. From my own experience (Zeiss, Olympus, Leica), once you have enough components together, you will find novel combinations that will work!

Regards, Ichty

pbraub
Posts: 77
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Re: Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

Post by pbraub »

The normal (non hc/hr) are the ones i use most often and are the ones I have in my condenser. They give an optimal middle ground imho.

Ilike the HR prisms mostly for photography. When viewing by naked eye they seem very flat. In postprocessing you can get out so much more detail when adjusting the brightness and contrast.

The HC on the other hand - i don't like them (at least not for what I do - mostly histology). The effect is just to strong. Unpleasant to the naked eze and in photography.

My take on mismatch is - the Uplanfl N objectives paired with old prisms (U-DP10, DP20, DP40, DP60) give an very goof DIC image, however there is a very noticable oblique gradient over the whole image. On single images it is not so bad, but it is a pita when stitching. Background correction only helps so much. Combining the old prisms for flourite objectives (U-DP) with apos (which would require U-DPA prisms does not give a nice dic effect (e.g. the PlanApo 60x with the U-DPO60x prism). In the end its mix and match and try.
Some things that oly specifically excludes in their manuals works in real life (got the same feedback also from an old oly tech)

Peter

Tom Jones
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Re: Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

Post by Tom Jones »

All DIC systems, including those made by Olympus, are research tools, and as such not at all intended for the amateur market. The compatibilities they describe are for best case use, not what will work at some lower level of performance that might be perfectly suitable for amateur photographic use. The HC and HR systems are designed to more closely match those systems from Leitz and Zeiss, and give Olympus' research customers a wider range of capabilities.

Macro_Cosmos
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Re: Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

burntant.jpg
Welp, the sad and sorry state of this U-ANT.
It has been cooked, it's overcooked and Gordon Ramsay is mad.

While I'm not sure why it was damaged, it was probably used with a high power high intensity light source.
A mercury vapour lamp for fluorescent, and the slider left inside the nosepiece is a pretty good guess. Ties in to pbraub's post above.

I learned from hkv that Olympus offers a special filter to cut out the uv component inherent to mercury lamps, preventing the filter from being damaged. It's likely an ordinary UV filter or a uv-ir-cut, making DIY possible. Olympus also offers a U-25 for DIY stuff? Can't find it online, is it a cube, or some sort of filter housing? If it's the latter, I'd love a picture with some dimensions for me to engineer a custom adaptor.

:roll:

Seller is nice, he is happy to replace it or refund. That's a good thing at least.

pbraub
Posts: 77
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Re: Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

Post by pbraub »

Got a similarly cooked one. It was left in the ligthpath of a 100W mercury burner.

When you want to do epifluoresence and DIC you should use the u-an (instead of the u-ant) because it is outside of the illumination path. a) you don't lose excitation light and b) you don't cook your filter.
Surprisingly the cooked u-ant works totally fine. It still has good extinction when crossed and produces a good dic image.

For the 25mm adapters- you can 3d print or machine one. they are a very basic design. you could even cut them from cardbord. I can send you the dimensions. Strike that. Here are the dimensions.

Image
u25nd6.jpg
IMG_20200909_214901.jpg
in the illumination arm are 4 slots (covered here) that accept these sliders. 2 have outlets on the opposite site to allow for longer multi-filter sliders.
The 2 in the back can also be used for excitation balancers (which are rare and expensive and unnecessary if you have an led with individually adjustable intensities)

Macro_Cosmos
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Re: Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

Thanks for the images! So that "blank slider" is merely one of the sliders without optics. I have a U-poc3 that looks similar.
I'm still waiting for my u-dict and u-ucd. Both were just sent via DHL, from China and America. It should arrive in at most a couple weeks.

Meanwhile I'll compare the U-ANT to another polariser I have. I might just keep it and get a partial refund. :-k
The burn doesn't look too nasty. However for almost $200, I do expect it to be nearly new.

pbraub
Posts: 77
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Re: Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

Post by pbraub »

Macro_Cosmos wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:59 am
Thanks for the images! So that "blank slider" is merely one of the sliders without optics. I have a U-poc3 that looks similar.
It probably has some retaining ring or similar to hold 25mm filters, but nothing fancy I would guess. A simple custom build part will probably do the trick. With 3D printing you might run in some heat problems, though (depending on the light source).
The one i showed is not a custom one but one of the 25mm ND filters for the fluorescent microscopes.

Macro_Cosmos wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:59 am
Meanwhile I'll compare the U-ANT to another polariser I have. I might just keep it and get a partial refund. :-k
The burn doesn't look too nasty. However for almost $200, I do expect it to be nearly new.
For $200 i would expect a filter without burnmakrs, maybe not in perfect cosmetic quality. I think your plan is good!

Peter

Macro_Cosmos
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Re: Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

pbraub wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:51 pm
Macro_Cosmos wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:59 am
Thanks for the images! So that "blank slider" is merely one of the sliders without optics. I have a U-poc3 that looks similar.
It probably has some retaining ring or similar to hold 25mm filters, but nothing fancy I would guess. A simple custom build part will probably do the trick. With 3D printing you might run in some heat problems, though (depending on the light source).
The one i showed is not a custom one but one of the 25mm ND filters for the fluorescent microscopes.

Macro_Cosmos wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:59 am
Meanwhile I'll compare the U-ANT to another polariser I have. I might just keep it and get a partial refund. :-k
The burn doesn't look too nasty. However for almost $200, I do expect it to be nearly new.
For $200 i would expect a filter without burnmakrs, maybe not in perfect cosmetic quality. I think your plan is good!

Peter
Welp, it just gets worse for me...
oil1.jpg
The 100x uis2 oil objective I received is... well covered with oil. This isn't immersion oil. The grease from within the objective sipped out. The spring mechanism is stuck too. I have no idea how to fix it.
The objective was in full working order when it was sent out, seller has video proof. So something happened on the way, likely the several days of 110+F weather caused it.

Same goes with my swing-out condenser.
oil3.jpg
The top lens can indeed be removed.

Doesn't matter for the condenser. I cleaned it all up. The objective however is in a sad condition. It's not the seller's fault, so I don't feel right forcing a return. The shipping company that also stores these stuff in a likely very humid and hot warehouse doesn't want to take responsibility.

I just honestly hope my u-dict and u-dic100 shows up without any issues! I'll be so mad if there's problems.

If anyone has any suggestions on fixing the spring of my 100x, please let me know. I'm not gonna take it apart. I'm thinking about soaking the tip in distilled water or... well I really don't know! I have a 100x apo that has a stuck spring too.

Macro_Cosmos
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Re: Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

These 2 items come from 2 different sellers!
Hence my deduction. The chances of the same thing happening to two drastically different items is slim. No idea what they were doing in the warehouse, maybe forging metal sculptures or making fine China. :roll:

Vish_007
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Re: Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

Post by Vish_007 »

The 100x uis2 oil objective I received is... well covered with oil. This isn't immersion oil. The grease from within the objective sipped out. The spring mechanism is stuck too. I have no idea how to fix it
Surprised to see grease on the objective, not aware uis2 100x spring load obj contain grease. The one have has nice play, but sometimes it get stuck and resolved by applying gentle pressure...
Attachments
100X UIS_Obj.jpg
Vishnu

Macro_Cosmos
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Re: Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

Image

I don't think there's a problem with the images. The Plan N does look like a disaster, but that's expected; especially when compared to two titans.

Macro_Cosmos
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Re: Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

Everything arrived! I don't have a UIS2 40x or 100x. I tried the prisms with my 40x and 100x UIS oil immersion objectives, here are the results.

40x:
Image

100x:
Image

The 40x stack can benefit from a lot of work. The 100x features some rather aggressive sharpening, +500 in Capture One! Even +1000, I don't see many shapening artefacts. I like it. Do these results look good enough, is it still necessary to go after those UIS2 objectives? I can get a UIS2 40x FL, NA of 0.75, I'm pretty convinced that it's not gonna be as good as my 40x with an NA of 1.00. It's a phase contrast objective, I however am not seeing any doughnuts being etched into the exposures, happy to know that.

100x can be seen here:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/503 ... 96e5_o.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/503 ... 905b_o.jpg

Macro_Cosmos
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Re: Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

Post by Macro_Cosmos »

lol.jpg
And here I am doing something stupid. Didn't slot the prism into the holder correctly, rubbed some of the anodising off and made a permanent mark on the lid. :oops:

So my 100x shot didn't have the prism centred correctly.

pbraub
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:23 pm

Re: Help needed: DIC components necessary for my Oly

Post by pbraub »

Macro_Cosmos wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:25 am

And here I am doing something stupid. Didn't slot the prism into the holder correctly, rubbed some of the anodising off and made a permanent mark on the lid. :oops:
These universal condensers are a pain in the #####. most of my prisms have marks from rubbing against the condenser turret lid.

Your shots look very nice. Prism mismatch isn't so bad after all. I had mismatch the other way around (u-dp** prisms with uis2 objectives) and they produced a nice dic but, as stated previously, with a significant gradient. seems that uis2 prisms to uis objectives works better.
One of the benefits of using uis2 prisms is (afaik) that you do not need specific apo prisms (e.g. u-dpa40) - and this seems to hold true for your uis apo.
Maybe we should start out some knowledge base for hobbyists :-)

Peter

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