Schneider Apo Componon HM 6.7/60

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kaleun96
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Schneider Apo Componon HM 6.7/60

Post by kaleun96 »

I managed to snag this Apo HM 6.7/60 today on eBay for quite cheap:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Schneider-Kr ... 4159619891

It's in "as is" condition as a large part of the side was milled out and tapped (inserts?) for threads. I'm hedging the optics are still ok but it's a bit of a gamble, then again I won't likely see an Apo HM in this price range any time soon.

Does anyone know anything about this 6.7/60 variant? I can't find any info but my suspicion is that it's a fixed aperture version of the 4/60 Apo HM. Though they only bare some slight resemblance to the fixed aperture versions I've seen from this lens range, e.g.
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... c&start=15

ray_parkhurst
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Re: Schneider Apo Componon HM 6.7/60

Post by ray_parkhurst »

kaleun96 wrote:I managed to snag this Apo HM 6.7/60 today on eBay for quite cheap:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Schneider-Kr ... 4159619891

It's in "as is" condition as a large part of the side was milled out and tapped (inserts?) for threads. I'm hedging the optics are still ok but it's a bit of a gamble, then again I won't likely see an Apo HM in this price range any time soon.

Does anyone know anything about this 6.7/60 variant? I can't find any info but my suspicion is that it's a fixed aperture version of the 4/60 Apo HM. Though they only bare some slight resemblance to the fixed aperture versions I've seen from this lens range, e.g.
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... c&start=15
Probably came out of a Colortrak or similar scanner. The milling was likely aftermarket since it's not anodized.

Edited to add: I have a similar 80/6.7 from a Colortrak. It's an Apo Digitar.

kaleun96
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Post by kaleun96 »

Thanks Ray, good to see the 6.7/80 did well in your 80mm coin shootout too!

On that note, I collect a few ancient coins here and there and will make subjects of them one of these days. The relief on them can be pretty extreme so they will really test my stacking capabilities.
The milling was likely aftermarket since it's not anodized.
Yup, seems like a bit of a quick job to me. Didn't even bother with a decent finish pass.

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

kaleun96 wrote:Thanks Ray, good to see the 6.7/80 did well in your 80mm coin shootout too!

On that note, I collect a few ancient coins here and there and will make subjects of them one of these days. The relief on them can be pretty extreme so they will really test my stacking capabilities.
Even with the relatively small aperture the 80mm did well. In general I've had good luck with fixed-aperture copy/repro lenses. The mfrs likely fix the aperture at the best position for overall performance in the system, and my purposes seem to overlap. That said, the f5.6 version of this lens did not perform as well as the f6.7, but that may be due to variations between copies. I held out so much hope for the f5.6 given the good performance from the f6.7, but alas it was not to be.

Stacking ancients is a time honored tradition. I first heard about focus stacking with regard to ancient coins, so folks have been doing it for quite some time. Biggest issue I've had with irregular-shaped coins is getting a clean background. You can't just do a circle crop like you do with modern milled coins. I have found that shooting on Protostar or similar allows the background to "disappear" with a bit of processing, eliminating the need for cropping or tedious background editing. Some folks put the coin on a pedestal like a golf tee or similar, bringing the coin far forward from the background. The results I've seen are good, though I still prefer the Protostar method.

enricosavazzi
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Re: Schneider Apo Componon HM 6.7/60

Post by enricosavazzi »

kaleun96 wrote:[...]
Does anyone know anything about this 6.7/60 variant? I can't find any info but my suspicion is that it's a fixed aperture version of the 4/60 Apo HM. Though they only bare some slight resemblance to the fixed aperture versions I've seen from this lens range, e.g.
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... c&start=15
Judging from specifications and general appearance, it is most likely an Apo 60 mm f/4 HM in fixed-aperture barrel. However, auction pictures show a flat optical surface (apparently multicoated) almost flush with one end of the barrel. There is no such flat surface in the Apo 60 f/4 HM, where both front and rear optical surfaces are very convex (quite like the non-HM model).

If this flat optical surface is a filter of some sorts, it has been added to the lens and probably can be removed without much effort. If it is the surface of the first lens element, then the optical scheme is clearly not the same as the Apo 60 f/4 HM.
--ES

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Re: Schneider Apo Componon HM 6.7/60

Post by ray_parkhurst »

enricosavazzi wrote: If this flat optical surface is a filter of some sorts, it has been added to the lens and probably can be removed without much effort. If it is the surface of the first lens element, then the optical scheme is clearly not the same as the Apo 60 f/4 HM.
It looks like the same type of filter present on my 80/6.7 Colortrak/Apo-Digitar. Mine is epoxied in place, so not at all easy to remove and not replaceable after removal. I have two of them, purchased from same seller, and I removed the filter from one of the lenses but left it on the other. I can't tell the difference in IQ except for a very subtle color shift. The one on the 60/6.7 looks like it's even more integrated as it seems to fit over a wide area of the front element casing. If it's epoxied in place like mine it will likely take a machine shop to remove it.

kaleun96
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Post by kaleun96 »

The mfrs likely fix the aperture at the best position for overall performance in the system, and my purposes seem to overlap.
Nice that was my thinking too!
Stacking ancients is a time honored tradition.
Interesting, I haven't come across it much myself in the circles I frequent. But some auction houses do amazing jobs and I wonder if they ever do some stacking (the ones that let you zoom in to a detailed close up) or manage it with large sensors and good lenses.

What's the Protostar method you mentioned? I didn't come across anything relevant on Google that wasn't space-related. I have been wondering myself how to support the coins cleanly.
It looks like the same type of filter present on my 80/6.7 Colortrak/Apo-Digitar.
Ah good to know, was wondering that myself.


Thanks for the info everyone.

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

kaleun96 wrote:
What's the Protostar method you mentioned? I didn't come across anything relevant on Google that wasn't space-related. I have been wondering myself how to support the coins cleanly.
Protostar is a velvet surface flocking material. It's not perfectly black but is pretty good at absorbing without reflecting much. I put it on stage plates to give a deep black background for shooting coins. Usually the RGB result is in the 444 to 888 range, so some adjustment is needed if you want 000. New and clean Protostar is very uniform, but after a while some fibers will be permanently disturbed and will show lighter. Also, any dust or foreign fibers will show up brightly, so it needs to be kept clean. I use tape to pick up anything on the surface, as well as stray broken fibers. It sounds like a lot of maintenance but in practice it's not too bad, and it does give a nice disappearing background. Using the golf tee method it's hard to get the background as dark. If you use Protostar behind the golf tee you can probably eliminate some of the cleaning regimen. Here's a link to the material:

http://www.fpi-protostar.com/hitack.htm

I see they have added a tape roll since the last time I bought, but it's only 1-5/8" wide so might not work for larger coins.

RobertOToole
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Re: Schneider Apo Componon HM 6.7/60

Post by RobertOToole »

ray_parkhurst wrote: It looks like the same type of filter present on my 80/6.7 Colortrak/Apo-Digitar. Mine is epoxied in place, so not at all easy to remove and not replaceable after removal. I have two of them, purchased from same seller, and I removed the filter from one of the lenses but left it on the other. I can't tell the difference in IQ except for a very subtle color shift. The one on the 60/6.7 looks like it's even more integrated as it seems to fit over a wide area of the front element casing. If it's epoxied in place like mine it will likely take a machine shop to remove it.
Can confirm this. This is pressed on and glued filter.

My 80/5.6 Colortrak/Apo-Digitar lens had a built up of dust between the filter and lens so I managed to destroy the filter removing it.

BTW for the record my 80/5.6 Colortrak/Apo-Digitar was a disappointing performer. Judging by the performance it performs like a 5.6/80 makro-symmar, which is also a poor performer overall.

When I get some free time I plan to post a warning about the colortrac lenses in the future here on the forum and on my site about the fact that the lens adapter and filter are glued into place and in my opinion not worth the bother even for $150.

Robert
Last edited by RobertOToole on Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ray_parkhurst
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Re: Schneider Apo Componon HM 6.7/60

Post by ray_parkhurst »

RobertOToole wrote:
ray_parkhurst wrote: It looks like the same type of filter present on my 80/6.7 Colortrak/Apo-Digitar. Mine is epoxied in place, so not at all easy to remove and not replaceable after removal. I have two of them, purchased from same seller, and I removed the filter from one of the lenses but left it on the other. I can't tell the difference in IQ except for a very subtle color shift. The one on the 60/6.7 looks like it's even more integrated as it seems to fit over a wide area of the front element casing. If it's epoxied in place like mine it will likely take a machine shop to remove it.
Can confirm this. This is pressed on and glued filter.

FYI I pulled the filter from a 80/5.6 Colortrak/Apo-Digitar lens since there was a built up of dust between the filter and lens. I managed to destroy the filter removing it.

(BTW for the record my 80/5.6 Colortrak/Apo-Digitar was a disappointing performer. Judging by the performance it performs like a 5.6/80 makro-symmar, which is also poor performer overall. )
In my 80mm shootout (http://www.macrocoins.com/80mm-lens-shootout.html), the 80/6.7 Apo Digitar performed better than the 80/5.6. I was very disappointed with the 80/5.6, since I was hoping for better performance vs the 80/6.7. However, my 80mm Macro-Symmar was a very strong performer, and indeed won the shootout, so we had a very different experience with this lens. Perhaps you have a bum copy of this lens? Indeed I have two of them, and they both perform well.

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Re: Schneider Apo Componon HM 6.7/60

Post by RobertOToole »

ray_parkhurst wrote:
RobertOToole wrote:
ray_parkhurst wrote: It looks like the same type of filter present on my 80/6.7 Colortrak/Apo-Digitar. Mine is epoxied in place, so not at all easy to remove and not replaceable after removal. I have two of them, purchased from same seller, and I removed the filter from one of the lenses but left it on the other. I can't tell the difference in IQ except for a very subtle color shift. The one on the 60/6.7 looks like it's even more integrated as it seems to fit over a wide area of the front element casing. If it's epoxied in place like mine it will likely take a machine shop to remove it.
Can confirm this. This is pressed on and glued filter.

FYI I pulled the filter from a 80/5.6 Colortrak/Apo-Digitar lens since there was a built up of dust between the filter and lens. I managed to destroy the filter removing it.

(BTW for the record my 80/5.6 Colortrak/Apo-Digitar was a disappointing performer. Judging by the performance it performs like a 5.6/80 makro-symmar, which is also poor performer overall. )
In my 80mm shootout (http://www.macrocoins.com/80mm-lens-shootout.html), the 80/6.7 Apo Digitar performed better than the 80/5.6. I was very disappointed with the 80/5.6, since I was hoping for better performance vs the 80/6.7. However, my 80mm Macro-Symmar was a very strong performer, and indeed won the shootout, so we had a very different experience with this lens. Perhaps you have a bum copy of this lens? Indeed I have two of them, and they both perform well.
Agreed, also our tests were made under different parameters. I was testing the 5.6/80 MS against the 120 Makro Symmar at 1x. I have looked into these two lenses quite a bit. I decided not to try another 80mm Makro Symmar since SK specs indictate the 120 MS is a better lens if a 90mm image circle is enough coverage.

The 80mm Makro Symmar and 120 Makro Symmar are really made for different applications.

Makro Symmar 80, 160mm image circle no sensor pitch recommendation. Machine vision applications.
Makro Symmar 120, 90mm image circle 12K line scan 5 micro sensor applications
For fun:
Macro Varon 85, 62mm image circle 16K line scan and 3.5 micro sensor applications

The MTF graphs from SK are interesting, take a look (I was forced to use 20 lp/mm since this was the only frequency that was shared)

First look seems to indicated that the 80mm Makro Symmar is much better.

With the freq labels added on the second row the MTF graphs indicate something completely different.

On the bottom row left I added the 120 MTF line to the 80 MTF graph with the distance from axis adjusted.

Just for fun on the bottom row right side I added the Macro Varon. The MV curve is also 20 lpmm MTF graph adjusted for only 31mm from axis.

Interesting!

FYI: U' = image plane height. U'=0 would be the optical axis.


Image

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

I was only looking at APS-C sensor, so only 27mm image circle (13.5mm radius on the MTF charts). But even for FF (21.6mm on the charts), the MTFs are essentially flat.

Would be nice if all MTFs had the markers for nyquist to compare how much loss there is due to the lens not being diffraction-limited, but the 85MV curve is probably at nyquist. I assume the 85MV curve is for f5.6, correct?

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Post by RobertOToole »

ray_parkhurst wrote:I was only looking at APS-C sensor, so only 27mm image circle (13.5mm radius on the MTF charts). But even for FF (21.6mm on the charts), the MTFs are essentially flat.

Would be nice if all MTFs had the markers for nyquist to compare how much loss there is due to the lens not being diffraction-limited, but the 85MV curve is probably at nyquist. I assume the 85MV curve is for f5.6, correct?
Yes, the MacroVaron MTF is at f5.6.

The SK chart shows percentage, 0-100% of an 80mm image height so 21mm would be right about halfway between 20 and 40. The MS80 is dropping off at that point.

SK is not showing MTF data at 20-40-80 for a reason and its not good. This might be why my sample did not look good at 100% view in photoshop but my 80 Makro Symmar sample could also be off.

Robert

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Post by ray_parkhurst »

Here is the practical difference between my 80MS and 85MV at center. Both at m=1:1, f5.6, same lighting (though WD does change it a bit). They are very similar, but you can for sure see the 85MV is a bit sharper. 200% crops:

85MV
Image

80MS
Image

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

And here are the two lenses at 31mm/62mm Image Circle. Moved the lighting to be similar to Center shots, though not exactly the same. 200% crops again. The differences are much more obvious.

85MV
Image

80MS
Image

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