Zeiss Axiomat question

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Ceresio
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:55 pm
Location: Switzerland

Zeiss Axiomat question

Post by Ceresio »

Hello, I am new to the forum, a warm hello to everybody.

For work I use a stereo microscope (Leica M165 with camera and software), and getting involved as an hobbyist I purchased a Zeiss Universal. The Zeiss is equipped only for transmitted light, but being my main interest the observation in reflected light, I started to look for all of the accessories needed for reflected light. To make a long story short, between the costs and difficulty to find every single part, and being me un-expert of non-stereo microscopes, being afraid to make wrong purchases that would not fit my microscope, I started to look for a new system already equipped for reflected light.

I came across an offer of a Zeiss Axiomat that was unused since a long time, so much that most of the knobs were quite hard, but I could not resist and I purchased it.

With some work and patience, things are back running smoothly as they should.

My question: I want to attach a camera to the Axiomat. There is already connected an adapter (see pictures Adapter 1 and 2) but unluckily no brand, code or else printed on it so that I can identify it.

I started "guessing" what it can be for, based on the lens mount specifications I found in internet. I tried with a Canon EF (54 mm throat) but it is too narrow. Then I tried with a Pentacon Six (60 mm throat) but it is too big. So it must be something in between, but I have no idea what. Flange focal distance seem to be around 25 mm, quite short for a throat that size.

Anyone have an idea of what this adapter can be for?

If not, can anyone give me the code(s) for adapter(s) that would fit in the same place as my adapter, for whatever kind of camera, so that I can look to find one?

As an alternative, there are also in the Axiomat the side and top camera inlets you can see in the inlet pictures. Maybe it would be easier to use those ports? Can you suggest the need parts codes?

Thank you, Ceresio

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abednego1995
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:53 pm

Post by abednego1995 »

Wow, a private Axiomat!! Congrats on your acquirement.

Sadly the manuals and brochures of the Axiomat I have don't shed light upon what that mount is... From the 3 flanges and the seemingly narrow optical path within I'm guessing an ENG (B4) mount used in video cameras.
There are various adapters for converting a B4 mount to others, but I think a 1" sensor is the maximum (It's originally meant to be used with 2/3" sensors) you'll squeeze out of that port.

However if it's a B4 mount, you already know the flange to sensor distance and the tube length, so you could perhaps have a photo tube made to specifications.
It'll at least project a 25mm diameter image circle, guaranteed by the field number of the oculars available, perhaps more, but not sure if the periphery will be pretty.

Cheers,
John

Ceresio
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:55 pm
Location: Switzerland

Post by Ceresio »

Hello John,

thank you very much for the help, I think that you really are spot on!
I did not find yet the measure of the throat diameter for the B4 mount (that is the only parameter I can check exactly), but all other things seem to indicate that that's the one!
Also the flange focal distance that should be 48 mm seem appropriate (my previous guessing of 25 was wrong).
I take note of your suggestions that make a lot of sense. As I already own a Panasonic GH2 Micro 4/3 camera, probably the easiest thing to do at this point is to purchase a B4 to m43 adapter and use the camera I already own, that is good both for pictures and for videos.
I made a "test" keeping the camera without lens in front of the adapter, by hand, simulating the right distance, and I got the picture enclosed. I think that with the right adapter it should be more than fine.

Thank you again for your help, as I see you have some Axiomat manuals and brochures, I would be very grateful if you don't mind to share them with me, I only have the "Axiomat operating instructions" available on the net. In case, please pm me.

Cheers,

Ceresio

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wpo
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:50 pm
Location: Germany / Nds.

Post by wpo »

Hello Ceresio,

I do not know what kind of adaptor your pictures show but it is surely not an original ZEISS made adaptor. I think it is "home built" by a precision mechanical workshop possibly using ZEISS mechanical and optical components.

I´ll show you some different mounts of cameras I realized on my own Axiomat. The pictures show the Axiomat equipped with different film cameras but nowadays I use digital Nikons instead of those, of course. The most interesting modification is removing the old ZEISS Axiomat dual film format camera from the top. There ist an image plane just a few millimeters under the upper hole in the middle of the camera bloc. I installed the camera sensor exactly in this image plane by using a 2x converter lens to fill the whole full format sensor. The new digital camera is just as the other mounted cameras 100% harmonized to the eyepieces so that one does not need to look to the camera Monitor or the reflex viewfinder.

The Axiomat is really a wonderful microscope which gives you best image quality and it is still my most used and preferred microscope.

There was a special optical corrector made by ZEISS in the late 1980´s when the modern ICS optic was introduced, to enable using ICS on the Axiomat because of its very high price when purchased only few years ago. Only DIC is not possible with ICS and Axiomat and sadly no using of Jamin-Lebedeff out of the ZEISS Standard program.

If you are interested in more information feel free to ask me.

Best regards

Wolfgang

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Last edited by wpo on Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ceresio
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:55 pm
Location: Switzerland

Post by Ceresio »

Hello Wolfganag,

thank you for sharing the pictures of your Axiomat. It is absolutely impressive, not only how you set it up, but I am also sure that you own every single option/accessory ever built for the Axiomat! Fantastic.

About my adapter I agree, nothing at all written on it anywhere, it really seem to be a custom made part, also well made I would add.

Does the camera adapter you installed on the side (with one part labelled Zeiss f220) include some custom made parts or are all just Zeiss pieces?
If that is the case, it would be nice for future reference if you could share the codes of the different Zeiss parts, from the microscope exit to the camera.

I see that the camera you mounted on the top, very interesting, is over a steel top module of the Axiomat that was not included with mine (last module in mine is the dual format camera module itself) , so I do not know if this can be an option for me.

I am aware of the possibility to mount last (or later) generation objectives, but to be honest I am so new to all of this that for the moment I am happy with what I have. When my needs will grow, I will look for all of those advanced possibilities. Anyway, very good to know all of the possibilities of the very nice Axiomat system, especially beacause many of them are undocumented.

Thank you and best regards,

Ceresio

Ceresio
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:55 pm
Location: Switzerland

Post by Ceresio »

Another question:I received the Axionmat with the twin lamp module you can see behind the microscope. One lamp is operated by the 12v outlet of the Axiomat controller. All fine here.
The other one, is connected to the Siemens power supply with the plug you can see in the picture. This power supply seem much older than the microscope, it works but also throw out a huge smell of ozone, that really make me think something is wrong with it, and maybe also dangerous.
Can I substitute it with a more modern power suplly, that get the same plug? What I have to look for? Do you know a Zeiss model that is suitable?

Thank you,

CeresioImage
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wpo
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:50 pm
Location: Germany / Nds.

Post by wpo »

Hello Ceresio,
Ceresio wrote:
thank you for sharing the pictures of your Axiomat. It is absolutely impressive, not only how you set it up, but I am also sure that you own every single option/accessory ever built for the Axiomat! Fantastic.
Thank you for your compliments. During my time of pathological :wink: enthusiasm for Axiomat microscopes 25 years ago I picked every accessory item for Axiomat I could get, but there were so many different accessory parts built by ZEISS that I am far away from the point of owning everything made for the Axiomat. Furthermore I do not have the space to store all these parts and than would never risk that my beloved wife protests against my Hobby.
Ceresio wrote:Does the camera adapter you installed on the side (with one part labelled Zeiss f220) include some custom made parts or are all just Zeiss pieces?
If that is the case, it would be nice for future reference if you could share the codes of the different Zeiss parts, from the microscope exit to the camera.
The camera adaptor is taken from the ZEISS medical OPMI microscope program. This is possible because of the fully corrected optical beam inside the Axiomat above from the corrector lens which is installed in the slider just above the drawer for the fluorescence or incident light reflector bloc. There is a connecting part mounted in this outlet of the Axiomat which is primary made for the big projection screen and the 8x10 camera. The connecting part between this and the camera adaptor (f=220mm) was made by a friend of mine. I will try to make a picture the next days to show the Details.
Ceresio wrote:I see that the camera you mounted on the top, very interesting, is over a steel top module of the Axiomat that was not included with mine (last module in mine is the dual format camera module itself) , so I do not know if this can be an option for me.
The mentioned friend owns an Axiomat too and he made a similar adaption without the genuine top plate but with prefabricated aluminium parts. It works as my adaption does. Did you ever disassemble your Axiomat? If you remove the camera bloc, there are nuts in the 4 holes of the next level. There you kann fit your self built camera mount.
Ceresio wrote:.... especially beacause many of them are undocumented.


Oh, there is lot of documentation about the Axiomat and its accessories but partially hard to get.

Best regards

Wolfgang
Last edited by wpo on Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

wpo
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:50 pm
Location: Germany / Nds.

Post by wpo »

Ceresio wrote:Another question:I received the Axionmat with the twin lamp module you can see behind the microscope. One lamp is operated by the 12v outlet of the Axiomat controller. All fine here.
The other one, is connected to the Siemens power supply with the plug you can see in the picture. This power supply seem much older than the microscope, it works but also throw out a huge smell of ozone, that really make me think something is wrong with it, and maybe also dangerous.
Can I substitute it with a more modern power suplly, that get the same plug? What I have to look for? Do you know a Zeiss model that is suitable?
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I use the same power supply, not for my Axiomat but for my Leitz Panphot which is standing nearby and it works very well since a lot of years. I suppose that the smell of Ozone does not come out of the power supply but from the xenon short arc high pressure lamp which is installed in your big lamp house behind the axiomat. This xenon lamp is probably one of the type which is made to get very short (190nm +....) UV wave lengths and those lamps produce lot of Ozon. Today there is another common type marked as "OFR"-Ozon Free. These Xenon lamps do not produce Ozon but also not very short UV wave length (~ 300nm +...)

If you want to replace the Xenon short arc high pressure lamp be extremly careful, because the lamp is under high pressure even it is switched off and cold (in opposite to Mercury short arc lamps). Be aware of the possibility of exploding quarz glass bulb. Do never open the lamp house while the lamp ist switched on and use protection glasses and gloves every time.

If you do not get the lamp ignited by turning the rotary switch in front of the powersupply, you can try twice or thrice but not more. Wait 1 minute or more before turning the switch again. If you turn the switch more often at once you will damage the power supply.

There are more modern power supplies for Mercury and Xenon lamps for microscopy, but all these do not have the same plug. So if you want to replace the power supply you have to replace the lamp socket, cable and plug. Today I would prefer to substitute the Xenon lamp for a power LED. It is this the most modern microscopical light source which gives you much light and less problems.

Ceresio
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:55 pm
Location: Switzerland

Post by Ceresio »

Thank you very much Wolfgang, I got more information from you than from hours and hours spent browsing on Internet.
I see your very nice camera adapters, unluckily I know nobody that is equipped and has the knowledge to make custom built optical parts. So, for the moment I am looking for an easy solution "off the shelf", than when I will have more specific needs I will further investigate this possibility.

If John is right (and I think he is), and my adapter is a B4 mount, than I already found an ordered an adaptor to micro 4/3, with also the possibility to slightly regulate the focus. It will need some time to get it, but as soon as I get it I will tell how it works, if everything is fine it will be an easy and effective solution, let's see.

I completely disassembled the various stages of the Axiomat to transport it, it is incredibly heavy, so I saw how all is put together. As the system was not used for a long time, I also had to open some modules to make the old grease become soft again as most was very hard, and I added in some places a little bit of silicon spray that did a very good and clean job. Now everything is very smooth, just the polar base is still a little stiff.
So, if someone want to know what is inside, I saw it! :wink:

I found that a few years ago it was existing a website, www.axiomat.org, dedicated to people like us, owners and users of the Axiomat. It is really a pity that it is not online anymore, it would have been a fantastic source of information and experience exchange for all of us.

A special thank to Wolfgang also for clarifying all of the problematic involved with the high pressure lamp, I see that this is really a potential source of big danger, I surely would have taken some risks if I would not be warned by Wolfgang on all of the dangers of those kind of (to me unusual) lamps.
I see that the main source of troubles is the lamp itself and not the power supply, as I was wrongly guessing. So maybe the power supply can stay but it's the lamp that have to go.
I would try to find one Ozone Free lamp and to replace mine, as with the ozone you really cannot stay anymore in the room just after a few minutes, and anyway I have no specific needs, at the moment, for the very short UV wave length. But now I am a little bit scared also to change the lamp...

It would be fantastic to switch to LED light, but I am afraid that I will have to change everything and it would not be easy, and expensive.
Also my big lamps (up to 3 inside) house behind the Axiomat is quite nice, it is very useful as you can switch whatever light (of the 3, but I have 2 installed) to the transmitted light or the reflected light path, depending of the need, just turning a knob, so you can use different lights on the same path easily. Very useful, I would miss it if I have to do without the lamps house in order to implement LED light.

Best regards

Ceresio

Hokan
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:58 am
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA

Zeiss Axiomat Question

Post by Hokan »

Hello Folks,

I was the person that created the www.axiomat.org. website, however my ambitions exceeded my available time and limited website skills.The website was overwhelmed by internet trolls, porn hijacking, etc. Beyond my abilities to deal with such crap, I just shut it down.

However I still have all of my Axiomat catalogs, sales brochures, Axiomat operation bulletins, etc. I even have some Axiomat publications in German.

If you pm me I will be more than happy to share a list of what I have. While a bit slow, at my age it takes me longer to do less, I can scan pdf’s of my Axiomat and related Zeiss documents and email them to fellow Axiomat owners. Some of the pdf’s would be much larger then 20mb. When scanned at 300dpi. Maybe posting them to a cloud or something similar might be a answer. No cost for the pdf’s.

If anyone from Germany is interested in my German Axiomat literature just pm me, in English, and I will ship you the original Axiomat documents. You pay shipping if interested. First come, first served.

I have about 3 and a half Axiomats. But I have disassembled my inverted incident and transmitted Axiomat. I just use my incident configured Axiomat for occasional photomicrography.

Regards,

Hokan
SOM, (Son Of Multiphot), a DIY macro/micro rig.w/120, 65, 35, 19mm Macro-Nikkors, Nikon AZ100 1X and 4X objectives. Nikon Plan Fluor W objectives, 10X, 20X, 40X.
Zeiss Axiomat, incident BF, DF, DIC, Pol, Phase. With Zeiss infinity objectives, LD, Epi, APO, Plan types.

Stenberg
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:08 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Post by Stenberg »

Here is my Axiomat camera set-up. Unfortunately I don't have binocular viewer and all is done through the top camera port. I have a 10x objective in the phototube,Image
William

Choronzon
Posts: 384
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:14 am
Location: Chicago USA

Post by Choronzon »

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I own 4. 2 Polarizing, 1 Inverted DIC, and 1 MET DIC Inverted. If you want to image at the ultimate visible light ability, loose all the useless glass in the way of a digital sensor. Straight through from the 165mm tube lens to the camera sensor. Anything else is a compromise. the image circle with the camera plate on the image module is 35mm, but only straight through.
That's not enough for full frame, but so what. It's enough for APS-C and also APS-H. Sigma SD Quattro H. For full frame you need at least 2X, and yet more glass that causes light scatter.
I am not young enough to know everything.

JohnyM
Posts: 463
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:02 am

Post by JohnyM »

Those are sexiest microscopes i've seen! It can even take Fedorov?
Can i request a picture :lol: ?

Choronzon
Posts: 384
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:14 am
Location: Chicago USA

Post by Choronzon »

JohnyM, tell me what you want a photo of, and I'll send you one when I get home this weekend
I am not young enough to know everything.

Choronzon
Posts: 384
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:14 am
Location: Chicago USA

Post by Choronzon »

Custom building sn 640 biological inverted



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I am not young enough to know everything.

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