Stacked Lens vs APO objectives at 4x with Surprising Results

Have questions about the equipment used for macro- or micro- photography? Post those questions in this forum.

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RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

dolmadis wrote:
BTW don't forget to try searching with the info marked on the trim ring, Xenon 1:2/28 or 1:2/35.Robert
Thanks for the tip.

John
Glad to help John.

I don't think many people are even aware that these lenses exist, even now.

I can clearly remember rough looking Xenon f2 lenses sitting on Ebay for weeks with no bidders. I learned my lesson the hard way and normally only bid on clean lenses, thankfully I got lucky once or twice.

Robert

dmillard
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Post by dmillard »

Thanks again for sharing the performance of this lens combo!

From Schneider's data at https://www.schneideroptics.com/info/age_of_lenses/ , your particular 28mm & 35mm Xenons were produced in 1995 and 1996 respectively, but Schneider doesn't provide information about how long and how many of either lens were manufactured.

ChrisR
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Post by ChrisR »

In 2012 I posted that I have a
35mm f/2.0 Mid 1977 (looks much like the one above)
28mm f/2.0 Approx 1943 (looks older!)
Chris R

dmillard
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Post by dmillard »

ChrisR wrote:In 2012 I posted that I have a
35mm f/2.0 Mid 1977 (looks much like the one above)
28mm f/2.0 Approx 1943 (looks older!)
That's interesting Chris. I just looked in Kingslake's History of the Photographic Lens, and according to him, the Schneider Xenon is an unsymmetrical six element double-Gauss lens designed by A. Tronnier in 1925, based on the Taylor-Hobson Opic lens developed by H. W. Lee in 1920. This and similar designs were then widely used in movie camera and still camera lenses. So it's a lens with a lengthy history!

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

RobertOToole wrote:
These 39mm x 1.0 mount lenses appear on Ebay sometimes in groups for can't-pass-on-it prices (less than $20 sometimes). I also have E36 58mm with an iris and also a 115mm version not pictured here.

I bought these from an Ebay seller that used to own a minilab and he had a full set, I regret not snatching up longer FL lenses also, he had 120mm and some others.

They seem to be APO corrected and are not as sharp as a Minolta 5400 lens, what else is, but the image quality is very clean.

Downsides are lack of an iris in some lenses but they unscrew to change apertures so you easily install a different water-house if needed. Another thing is that the front threads are 38mm but a normal 38mm adapter I have only threads one half turn and stops so this may be a proprietary thread. I just tape them together when I use them in a stack. :shock:
These E36C fixed aperture lenses were made by Tomioka. Some are labeled Tominon, others are not labeled by brand. I've included them in a few shootouts and they are consistently good performers. There are variable aperture versions as well, designated E36. Interestingly I just picked up an 80mm that was branded JML, so it seems Tomioka made these for various purposes.

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

Robert, I just got back from Mexico, hence have not commented yet. This is a really nice piece of work, your persistence and curiosity once again yield an amazing find! Thanks for the work!

ChrisR
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Post by ChrisR »

If someone can explain why the SK120 which is optimized for magnification about 0.75:1 that way around, works well as a tube lens, I'm all ears!
Chris R

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dolmadis
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Post by dolmadis »

Chris

I think that I can add some comments because I have one of these just "In Hand"

The Retro or reversed magnification is 1.14 to 1.60.

Here is the Data sheet which refers to a retro configuration.

https://schneiderkreuznach.com/applicat ... -0.75x.pdf

The text is as follows;

To use the "Retro position" loosen the (Schneider-Kreuznach) labelled tube and mount it on the opposite side.

Asking this question by PM earlier Robert O'Toole reminded me of the orientation with "Barrel decal backwards, away from the subject is normal. Decal facing the subject is retro."

I hope this helps explain the retro configuration of the lens.

Can't comment on the tube lens properties though.

BR


John

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

ChrisR wrote:If someone can explain why the SK120 which is optimized for magnification about 0.75:1 that way around, works well as a tube lens, I'm all ears!
This lens was up at infinity focus for the testing.

I am curious about this as well.

This is a lens optimized for closeups not a consumer macro lens that has to perform at infinity. I have read that all consumer macro lenses are designed at infinity first and the close up performance is tuned later and usually not 1x.

dmillard
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Post by dmillard »

Well, for anybody that missed out on the Makro-Symmar, I will be posting one for sale very soon! :)

As Robert previously said, usedparts-semifa is one of the best. I ordered the lens Thursday, and received it this morning before 9:00 am, extremely well-packed. I then quickly tested it against the Makro-Symmar version that I already owned, an SR 5.6/120-0060 optimized for 0.5X, using a reversed Minolta MD 35mm f/2.8 objective at f/4.

The results from both Makro-Symmars were indistinguishable to me. Both lenses were focused at infinity, and both produced very clean 3.41X magnification images, with minimal CA across the field. I want to thank Robert again for this discovery, and all the other testing that he has done!

I'll be doing more rigorous testing of other lenses reversed on my Makro-Symmar in the next few days, but I'll be putting the one I just received on the Equipment Exchange so someone else will have the opportunity to use it.

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

dmillard wrote:......

The results from both Makro-Symmars were indistinguishable to me. Both lenses were focused at infinity, and both produced very clean 3.41X magnification images, with minimal CA across the field.
Good to know.

I also have the 120mm f5.6 HM 1x 'in-cells' blue-ring version and I am sure that lens would make a pretty good rear stack lens also. The HM version produces some very clean 1x images.
I want to thank Robert again for this discovery, and all the other testing that he has done!
Glad to help.

Just FYI, I am building a Makro-Symmar 120/5,6 page with lots of mounting info and specs, Its not 100% done yet so excuse the typos:

https://www.closeuphotography.com/schne ... ar-sr-120/

Thanks for the sharing the info.

Robert

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

I wonder if one of the reasons the Makro-Symmar works well is that it has a very flat field, and presumably so does the Xenon. It seems logical that the shapes of the fields should match between the two lenses. If both are flat, great. If one has negative curvature, maybe the other should have the same amount of curvature but in the opposite direction.

Rudi
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Post by Rudi »

Hi Robert,

I wonder if you made a comparison between the MS 5.9/120 on its own and the 'famous' Minolta 5400 ?

Thanks.
Always looking at the bright side of life,
Kr, Rudi

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

Rudi wrote:Hi Robert,

I wonder iff you made a comparison between the MS 5.9/120 on its own and the 'famous' Minolta 5400 ?

Thanks.
Hi Rudi,

No I have not, the MS120 is a fine lens with a very clean output, but its not in the same class as the Minolta due to the slower aperture.

To be honest though not many lenses I have ever used are in the same class as the Minolta in the 2-3x range!

I also own a 1x MS120 and that lens did surprisingly well against all the other lenses in my 1x test. Compared to the APO-Lanthar 125 it had slightly less detail, no surprise here, but it had better CAs, and was one of the best in the test for CA control.

Robert

Rudi
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Post by Rudi »

Thanks for your honest reply Robert. Much appreciated.

Kr, Rudi
Always looking at the bright side of life,
Kr, Rudi

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