Stacked Lens vs APO objectives at 4x with Surprising Results

Have questions about the equipment used for macro- or micro- photography? Post those questions in this forum.

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rjlittlefield
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Post by rjlittlefield »

ChrisR wrote:Do you happen to have any of the eg Pentax/Konica/Nikkor/Canon STM pancake lenses?
They'll be retrofocus (probably bad) but the WDs would be better.
I'm confused why the WDs would be better. When you reverse one of these in front of another lens focused at infinity, won't the focus point just be where the sensor normally sits, one flange focal distance away from the plane of the lens mount?

--Rik

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

rjlittlefield wrote:
ChrisR wrote:Do you happen to have any of the eg Pentax/Konica/Nikkor/Canon STM pancake lenses?
They'll be retrofocus (probably bad) but the WDs would be better.
I'm confused why the WDs would be better. When you reverse one of these in front of another lens focused at infinity, won't the focus point just be where the sensor normally sits, one flange focal distance away from the plane of the lens mount?

--Rik
Robert confirmed the WD for the Xenon was only 20mm.

ChrisR
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Post by ChrisR »

Image I'm thinking that normally you get a bit less than the FL, as with Robert's 28mm giving 20mm WD. It's a marginal benefit for the 40mms.
They do all tend not to have deeply recessed front elements which helps to get the lens physically close, though being retrofocus makes them more likely to vignette..
Chris R

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Post by rjlittlefield »

ChrisR wrote:They do all tend not to have deeply recessed front elements which helps to get the lens physically close, though being retrofocus makes them more likely to vignette..
I'm still confused. Would we not be using these short lenses on the front of the combo, reversed, with their normal rear elements facing the subject? In that case, and with the other lens focused at infinity, I'm thinking the working distance should be equal to the flange focal distance minus however much the lens normally protrudes into the mirror box, regardless of the focal length of the lens. Lenses that don't protrude much would have a weak advantage, but no lens can protrude very far because of the mirror.

What am I missing here?

--Rik

Rudi
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Post by Rudi »

RobertOToole wrote:Hi Rudi,

Yes, I just so happened to try some pairs last night actually, I tried some of the Noritsu APO lenses and some wider lenses on the Makro-symmar. This is what I tried without much to report about:

Makro-Symmar +

SK Componon 28/4
SK Componon 28/2.8
SK Componon 35/4
SK APO Componon 45/4
Rodenstock 25/4
Rodenstock 35/4
Noritsu 55/4 E36 (and some others of the same type)
Tominon 32mm
And some other scanner lenses.

Nothing as good as the Makro-Symmar + Xenon so far. Some were very sharp in the center but the corner sharpness was not consistent.

I really can't explain why that SKMS+Xenon combo is so good.

I'll keep looking for new combinations anyway.

If you have any ideas you think might work please feel free to share your thoughts. :)
Thanks for this helpfull info Robert. Unfortunately I can't be much off a help here as I have not (yet) any experience with this type off lenses...
Always looking at the bright side of life,
Kr, Rudi

ChrisR
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Post by ChrisR »

Surely it's going to be a case-by case situation.

It depends on where the relevant plane is. For a normal lens I believe it's the principal plane. If that's further "out" than the lens mount extremity, you're winning WD.
(Even a non retrofocus lens has some thickness.)
Retrofocus lens
Image
My Canon 10mm mount protrudes 10.4mm from the flange, (less wide-angles, a couple of mm less). A Nikkor 28mm, 8.4mm.
Nikon FFD is 46.5mm, most others a little less. Canon is 44.

The WD wouldn't ever get to 20mm for a FX-fitting, reflex-use lens. The Canon 10mm case implies the mirror needs >33.6mm (44 - 10.4)

I expect vignetting would make most retrofcus lenses unusable, though I don't have any really wide aperture wideangles to play with.
Chris R

typestar
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Post by typestar »

RobertOToole wrote:Just a heads up.

The Makro-Symmar 120/5.6 are $1300 new at Schneider Optics USA but they are $299 from one of my favorite seller location in S. Korea.
They show 2 units left in stock.
This community is very fast: ;-)

Image

@ Robert: You mentioned some Noritsu APO lenses --
Which lenses are this? Can you show these, please?

Thankyou for your great work, again!

typestar

dmillard
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Post by dmillard »

typestar wrote:
This community is very fast: ;-)
The challenge now is locating either of the Xenons! :wink:

dolmadis
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Post by dolmadis »

dmillard wrote:
typestar wrote:
This community is very fast: ;-)
The challenge now is locating either of the Xenons! :wink:

I can't find a trace of either............

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

Image

They are out there, I bought two in September and someone else snagged a 35/2 in August for, get this..... $70! Lens looks like its in good shape.

I paid more for the units that I bought.

Wonder if the buyer was someone on the forum?

BTW don't forget to try searching with the info marked on the trim ring, Xenon 1:2/28 or 1:2/35.

Robert

dolmadis
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Post by dolmadis »

BTW don't forget to try searching with the info marked on the trim ring, Xenon 1:2/28 or 1:2/35.Robert
Thanks for the tip.

John

rjlittlefield
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Post by rjlittlefield »

rjlittlefield wrote:
ChrisR wrote:Do you happen to have any of the eg Pentax/Konica/Nikkor/Canon STM pancake lenses?
They'll be retrofocus (probably bad) but the WDs would be better.
I'm confused why the WDs would be better.
Trying to be more clear...

What I'm confused by is the specific reference to pancake lenses.

Any short FL lens designed for use on an SLR with a mirror has to be retrofocus. That's what allows the rear element to be farther than 1 FL away from the sensor.

As I understand the term, "pancake" just means that the lens sticks out from the camera less when used normally.

But that by itself won't affect working distance when the lens is reversed and used as the front of a combo, as I'm assuming it will be.

So that's why I'm confused: what does the specific reference to pancake have to do with WD?

Maybe "pancake" means something more than I think it does?

--Rik

JohnyM
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Post by JohnyM »

I just want to say, that i dont expect any xenons for 70$ anymore :D
Im glad that im perfectly happy with my 3x - 5x

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

Hi Typestar,

Not only was this one a good buy...
typestar wrote:
RobertOToole wrote:Just a heads up.

The Makro-Symmar 120/5.6 are $1300 new at Schneider Optics USA but they are $299 from one of my favorite seller location in S. Korea.
They show 2 units left in stock.
This community is very fast: ;-)

Image
The seller, usedparts-semifa, is one of the best. They ship Fedex express for free and the way they package is very well done, to the point I felt bad for spoiling the beautiful job they did when I unpacked the lens. Most sellers I have dealt with put a single sheet of bubble around a lens and toss it in a box. Even other photographers are guilty of this.

typestar wrote:@ Robert: You mentioned some Noritsu APO lenses --
Which lenses are this? Can you show these, please?
Image

These 39mm x 1.0 mount lenses appear on Ebay sometimes in groups for can't-pass-on-it prices (less than $20 sometimes). I also have E36 58mm with an iris and also a 115mm version not pictured here.

I bought these from an Ebay seller that used to own a minilab and he had a full set, I regret not snatching up longer FL lenses also, he had 120mm and some others.

They seem to be APO corrected and are not as sharp as a Minolta 5400 lens, what else is, but the image quality is very clean.

Downsides are lack of an iris in some lenses but they unscrew to change apertures so you easily install a different water-house if needed. Another thing is that the front threads are 38mm but a normal 38mm adapter I have only threads one half turn and stops so this may be a proprietary thread. I just tape them together when I use them in a stack. :shock:
typestar wrote:Thankyou for your great work, again!

typestar
Glad to hear at least some finds my posts interesting. :D


BTW. If anyone wants to try one of the Noritsu lenses, I would be happy to let some go for a good price. I really don't need 6 different focal lengths.

Best

Robert

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

JohnyM wrote:I just want to say, that i dont expect any xenons for 70$ anymore :D
Im glad that im perfectly happy with my 3x - 5x
Sorry about that :?

I was also happy in this range before the Makro-Symmar+Xenon but Its nice to stumble on something pretty special and if someone told me a year or two ago that two lenses I owned would match or beat a Mitutoyo M Plan, at least on APS-C, it would have given me a good laugh.

Makes you wonder what other magic combinations there are out there, even with lenses you might already own.

Robert

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