Sharpest lenses for 0.3x...1.2x??

ray_parkhurst · Post by **ray_parkhurst** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:40 am

The mag range I'm most interested in is 0.3x...1x for coin photography. US Dollars require 0.4x for full-size on APS-C, while US Cents require 0.8x and I want a bit of flexibility outside the range. I've tested a LOT of lenses over the last year or so and have found that various lines of enlarging and duplicating lenses give me the best results. The lens lines and single lenses that I'm most happy with, in order of sharpness result in the critical range I've specified, are:

Nikon Printing-Nikkor (tested 105PN and 95PN)
Nikon Apo-EL-Nikkor (tested 105AEL)
Rodenstock Apo Rodagon D (tested 75ARD1 and 75ARD2)
Rodenstock Scitex S-3 (tested all 3, 67S3, 89S3, 110S3)
Tominon E36 (tested several from 58mm to 94mm)
Kyocera E36C (tested several from 67mm to 94mm))
Schneider-Kreuznach Apo Componon HM (tested 45ACHM and 90ACHM)
Nikon EL-Nikkor (tested all from 40mm to 150mm)

My question for the forum...are there other lines of lenses, or specific single lenses, that I should look at for this magnification range?

Other lenses I've heard about but not tested are:

Zeiss 74mm S-Planar
Zeiss 60mm S-Orthoplanar
Nikon Macro-Nikkors (65mm??)
Nikon Ultra-Micro Nikkors

I owned an 85mm Repro-Nikkor for a short time but found it was not really suited for DSLR use due to excessively short register requirements.

After testing several "dedicated macro" lenses (mostly Nikon) against the list above, I've given up on all of them. The results I could achieve with the optimized lenses were far superior to all the macro lenses I've tested.

So what am I missing? I'm still searching for a few lenses listed above, but maybe there are other lines I am not aware of? How good are the Edmund Optics repro-optimized lenses?

naturephoto1 · Post by **naturephoto1** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:07 am

Hi Ray,

You may wish to consider the Leica R 60mm f2.8 Macro Elmarit with the 1:1 adapter or some Leica R extension tubes as a substitute. You can ask Harold about his impressions since he found one at a very good price and followed my recommendation. At present many of the Leica R lenses can be found at relatively reasonable prices. When the anticipated Leica camera (probably in Prototype form) which is expected to accept R lenses, makes its appearance presumably for Photokina 2012 these and other lenses may be held more dearly by their owners and the pricing may well start to increase as the camera becomes available.

Rich

ray_parkhurst · Post by **ray_parkhurst** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:11 pm

Rich...thanks for the recommendation. However, I should have prefaced this with a couple statements / limitations for coin photography:

- I've found that 75mm is about the shortest lens I can deal with due to working distance limitations and lighting flexibility
- Most dedicated macros are fairly large in diameter, so make lighting more difficult. Hence part of my gravitation toward smaller lenses without focusing arrangements
- I'm addicted to bellows

The above limits pretty much rule out dedicated macros for me. Most also have the annoying quality of shortening focal length as magnification increases. The 75mm I refer to above is effective at the magnification. Do you know what the focal length of the 60mm Leica is at 1:1?

I had not considered going with a Leica lens or camera before. Do you know if the cameras have EFSC capability? I'm finding that to be a huge benefit on the Canon I now use in place of the Nikons I used for last 2 years.

...Ray

naturephoto1 · Post by **naturephoto1** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:40 pm

Hi Ray,

I do not know about the question of the focal length of the Leica 60mm f2.8 Macro Elmarit or the other questions that you have posed. I think that it has been suggested that the lens is close to 50mm at 1:1. However, I have extracted this information that I provided to Howard when he was considering the lens; I believe that should provide you with useful information:

I just made a quick and dirty set-up to provide you with some information. I used my Panasonic Lumix G1 M4/3 camera and Lumix Adapter R. I connected both my Leica R 60mm Macro Elmarit f 2.8 lens (both with and without the Macro Adapter R) as well as my Leica Bellows R with my Leica Bellows R Macro Elmar f4.0 lens to the camera by way of the Lumix Adapter R. I believe that the Macro Adapter R is 50mm in length while the 1:1 adapter that is designed for the lens (and what is coming with the lens in question) is 60mm in length.

I tripod mounted the camera and faced it toward some writing, manually focused on the screen (camera body long axis and front of the lens parallel to writing) (I did not use the fine focus adjustment on the camera but results would have been similar), made adjustments as stated and took measurements of the size of the image on the screen and took distances from the subject to the front of the lens.

Below are my findings and measurements:

Leica R 60mm Macro Elmarit f 2.8 lens:

Lens racked out to closest focus: image size on screen 25.5mm or a little larger than 1/2 life size (this is in agreement with the markings on the lens since this is past the markings for 1:2). The distance from the subject to the front of the lens was 123mm.

Leica R 60mm Macro Elmarit f 2.8 lens plus Leica Macro Adapter R (this is a different adapter than the 1:1 Adapter):

Lens at minimum focus with the Macro Adapter R used:

Image size on screen about 27mm. This is not quite be 1/2 life size with this adapter. The distance from the subject from the front of the lens with the Macro adapter R was approximately 133 mm. Using the 1:1 adapter on the lens would probably provide an image size of about 26mm or 1/2 life size when used on the lens. The distance from the subject to the front of the lens may be closer to about 130mm when using the 1:1 adapter.

Lens racked out to closest focus with the Macro Adapter R used:

Image size on screen 13mm or life size. Distance from subject to front of the lens was approximately 63mm. According to the markings on the lens, the 1:1 adapter would actually provide more magnification than life size when focused at its closest. This should result in an image size perhaps of 12mm and closer to 60mm? from the subject.

Having gone back, I do believe that my Leica Macro Adapter R may actually provides 1:1 with the lens and the information that I have provided should be quite close to what would be gotten with the Leica 1:1 adapter and quite close to the information that I have provided.

Rich

ray_parkhurst · Post by **ray_parkhurst** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:10 pm

Rich...great info...but the 63mm working distance at 1:1 is a showstopper for me. The working distance isn't actually the issue per se, it's the difficulty in getting lighting on the coin with so little room between lens and coin. I've built a few specialty diffusers that help with this but I've found I need about 100-125mm at 0.8:1 with as high an angle as I can get before direct reflection/glare sets in to get the best (IMO) lighting style...Ray

naturephoto1 · Post by **naturephoto1** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:23 pm

ray_parkhurst wrote:Rich...great info...but the 63mm working distance at 1:1 is a showstopper for me. The working distance isn't actually the issue per se, it's the difficulty in getting lighting on the coin with so little room between lens and coin. I've built a few specialty diffusers that help with this but I've found I need about 100-125mm at 0.8:1 with as high an angle as I can get before direct reflection/glare sets in to get the best (IMO) lighting style...Ray

Hi Ray,

Leica also has the 100mm f4.0 Bellows R Macro Elmar lens which focuses to 1:1. I have this lens as well as now the Leica R 100mm f 2.8 Apo Macro-Elmarit and the Leica Elpro 1:2 to 1:1. The latter option I just received, but is quite expensive. I have not compared the 60mm Elmarit to either lens for comparison of sharpness.

The Leica 100mm f2.8 Apo Macro-Elmarit lens is generally considered one of the 3 sharpest lenses in the 100mm to 125mm range for 35mm. The other 2 lenses in this group are normally considered the Zeiss (I believe 100mm) and the Voigtlander Apo Lanthar (I believe 125mm). The Leica had been the standard for a very long time and other 2 lenses being offered more recently. But, all 3 lenses are quite expensive. The Voigtlander and the Leica are out of production but can be purchased used (again, quite costly) or the Zeiss as new also quite costly. The Zeiss does not offer 1:1. The Voigtlander does through the helicoid focus and the Leica does through the addition of the supplementary diopter (Elpro 1:2 to 1:1) which is also costly but maintains the performance of the lens.

However I am providing the information that I did when I did the quick test for Howard, I took measurements with my 100mm f 4.0 Macro Elmar; by the way there is a helicoid version of the lens, but I do not believe that it focuses to 1:1. Below are my results that I provided for Howard for the 100mm Macro Elmar with the same set-up as the 60mm Elmarit:

Measurements were taken to the lens with the lens hood collapsed.

Leica Bellows R Macro Elmar f4.0 Lens plus Leica Bellows R:

0.5X (1/2 life size) Size on screen 26mm. Distance from subject to front of the lens 257mm (10 2/16").

1:1 (life size focused as close as possible on Bellows) Size on screen 13mm. Distance from subject to front of the lens was approximately 157.46mm (6 3/16").

Rich

Peter De Smidt · Post by **Peter De Smidt** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:31 pm

Over the next few weeks, I'll be testing a bunch of lenses at 1:1. (A Linos 75mm from an Imacon, an 80mm rodagon, 100mm Componon-s, 90mm fujinon es, 135mm el-nikkor, 150mm el-nikkor, and a Mitutoyo 2x at about 1.3.) If any of them is a standout, I'll let you know.

ray_parkhurst · Post by **ray_parkhurst** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:00 pm

Is the Linos an Apo Rodagon D? If not, what are the markings on it? ...Ray

TheLostVertex · Post by **TheLostVertex** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:15 pm

ray_parkhurst wrote:Rich...great info...but the 63mm working distance at 1:1 is a showstopper for me. The working distance isn't actually the issue per se, it's the difficulty in getting lighting on the coin with so little room between lens and coin. I've built a few specialty diffusers that help with this but I've found I need about 100-125mm at 0.8:1 with as high an angle as I can get before direct reflection/glare sets in to get the best (IMO) lighting style...Ray

I am aware that people who take photos of coins prefer them to be lit in a specific way to accent their luster. Have you thought about using a beam splitter to light your coins?

It would allow you light them with out a diffuser and achieve high angle lighting(up to 90º from the coin surface). While you still need room for the splitter, it could open up a few more options while allowing for a style of lighting that most coin photos try to achieve.

-Steve

ray_parkhurst · Post by **ray_parkhurst** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:22 pm

Yes, I've tried various types of axial and pseudo-axial lighting. Axial lighting creates a particular "look" and is very useful for certain types of coins that have heavy toning and "deep" coloration. With a short working distance, axial may be the only practical method, but it's not my preferred "look".

Note that you are spot on with most coin photographer's desire to show luster. Axial lighting unfortunately shows virtually no traditional "cartwheel" luster. The preferred luster presentation requires a significant angle between coin and light to generate the "luster bands" that coin collectors want to see. When the coin is minted in a coining press, metal flows outward radially. Lighting the coin from an angle picks up direct reflections off the metal flow lines perpendicular to the light direction. I call these "luster mirrors" since the presentation of luster is specular reflection in contrast to dark areas where the light reflects away from the lens. This local contrast creates lots of problems for chroma and other effects at the sensor as well. But axial lighting can only reflect specularly on the entire coin surface, reducing local contrast and eliminating the "luster bands".

Another issue with axial lighting is that many coins these days are encapsulated in plastic and graded by third party grading services. The flat surface of plastic above the coin causes no end of problems with direct specular reflection off the plastic surface back to the lens, and a resulting big drop in contrast.

Ray

Peter De Smidt · Post by **Peter De Smidt** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:05 pm

I would be surprised if it wasn't closely related to the Rodagon Ds, but I don't know for sure.

ray_parkhurst · Post by **ray_parkhurst** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:22 pm

Looks interesting! Did you get it from the eBay seller for $79. How is it mounted? I will be very interested to hear how well it performs...Ray

Peter De Smidt · Post by **Peter De Smidt** » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:50 pm

Hi Ray,

Yes, that's where I got it. It doesn't have any threads on the back. It does have filter threads on the front, but I don't know what they are. I made a sleeve for it, and the sleeve mounts on an extension tube.

My early tests show that at 1:1 it works better reversed. I'm modifying my test setup a bit. When I'm done, I'll do some tests and report the results. It might be kinda hard to get a hold of another one, though.

Harold Gough · Post by **Harold Gough** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:04 am

naturephoto1 wrote:You may wish to consider the Leica R 60mm f2.8 Macro Elmarit with the 1:1 adapter or some Leica R extension tubes as a substitute. You can ask Harold about his impressions since he found one at a very good price and followed my recommendation.

I took some shots of coins with it this morning. The intention is to post them in my topic about the lens. Then you can look there but not need to have them here. Unfortunately, the forum image upload process is currently complaining that the image files exceed the maximum size, even when I downsize them to 900 wide. I will try again later.

[Edit]I have managed to post all but two of the images so far.

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 004#105004

[Edit ends]

Harold

typestar · Post by **typestar** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:09 am

ray_parkhurst wrote:.... I've tested a LOT of lenses over the last year or so .... The lens lines and single lenses that I'm most happy with, in order of sharpness result in the critical range I've specified, are: ....

Ray, your testing results would be of interest for many of us, in this range of enlargement you use. Can you provide your testresults, best as highres-images, for us, from the lenses you have tested and share it with us?

As these had long reported as "legends" or even "best of the best", very interesting would be a comparison of this:

From the most expensive and rare:

Nikon Printing-Nikkor (105PN )
Nikon Apo-EL-Nikkor (105AEL)

to the "medium" -( but still high) priced:

Schneider-Kreuznach Apo Componon HM (tested 45ACHM and 90ACHM)

to the much easier to get and affordable:

Rodenstock Apo Rodagon D (tested 75ARD1 and 75ARD2)
Rodenstock Scitex S-3 (tested all 3, 67S3, 89S3, 110S3)
and finally the Nikon EL-Nikkor series (not APO)
As you think about 60 mm lenses also --
(btw: I find the new Nikon AF-S 60mm / 2.8 G really sharp -- and (I do not find it anymore) read a test, that it easily beated a Ultra-Mikro-Nikkor 28 mm in terms of resolution (not only in pictoral results)--

From the "old" lenses ther also is a Zeiss S-Sonnar 2.5/62 mm, which had been optimized for 1:2 (cine-copylens, tiny and sharp)

To find a test of this lenses - side by side - in the range 1x up to 0,5x
would be very nice -- if you find the time...

Thankyou in advance

Sharpest lenses for 0.3x...1.2x??

Sharpest lenses for 0.3x...1.2x??

Re: Sharpest lenses for 0.3x...1.2x??