Replacing Nikon with Canon

[ray_parkhurst]

I've just done a capture at 3x with my D7000 and found the Live View image far superior to the capture. I am tending toward blaming this on internal vibration in the camera rather than on the rest of the setup. In Live View on the D7000, the mirror is up and the image is captured before the mirror cycles for exposure calibration. I've compared true M-UP operation with Live View and can see no difference. I can't make the comparison with the more sophisticated EFSC operation of Canon, but I am thinking it might be time to make the conversion.

So the first question: is it likely my problem is the camera, and not the setup or something else I may be doing wrong?

And the second question: What Canon? Not being a Canon guy, I need some input. Here are some requirements and further questions:

- Prefer APS-C for cost reasons. Is there any compelling reason to go FF?
- Need good Live View operation, at least as good as the D7000, which updates exposure while tethered via CCP2
- Need to have option of Aperture Priority Mode with manual lenses. Is this accomplished only in the adapter or can some models deal with this like the D7000 does with a non-CPU lens list?
- Of course must have EFSC operation. Do all Canon bodies have this? I understand it is not a documented feature.
- What compatibility problems will I have using Nikon manual lenses?
- Same question as above for mounting on bellows. What adapters do I need for mounting the camera on bellows (Nikon, M42, T-Mount, etc)??

Thanks in advance for the help in deciding if I should go with Canon and which one to buy that will integrate best into a photomacrography setup.

Ray

[SONYNUT]

do you have noise reduction on?

sharpness set to low?

[ray_parkhurst]

do you have noise reduction on?

sharpness set to low?

Noise reduction: no. My exposure is not extremely long (1/125 typically) nor ISO extremely high (400 typically) so I don't know what good noise reduction would do.

Sharpness is off on all shots. I turn saturation and sharpness to 0. If I sharpen I do it in post processing.

Ray

[Charles Krebs]

Ray,

I would suggest you rent or borrow a Canon body to see if will do what you expect. 3X isn't really that high a magnification, but vibration induced by the mechanical first shutter curtain is a real possibility. (At least when I took a look at it on a microscope mounted camera I found the difference significant... compare the upper right and lower right images in this test: http://krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/index.html)

I would take a look at a 7D (APS) or a 5DII (full frame). The 1DIV does not have EFSC. Also skip the 60D... Canon did something internal in that one that gives a little "kick". The T2i and T3i are less expensive but they do have the EFSC. The higher end bodies use separate motors for the mirror and shutter, so it is possible to avoid mirror cycling as the shutter recycles. Don't forget that with Canon EFSC there will be no electronic flash sync signal given. (If a Canon flash is attached the camera detects it and automatically switches off EFSC and runs the mechanical first shutter curtain in order to sync and fire the flash).

Nikon to EOS adapters are cheap and readily available. The Nikon lenses focus to infinity, and camera metering works well, as does Aperture priority AE. (All my Nikon lenses have manual the manual aperture ring, so stopping down works... I imagine a Nikon "G" would be stuck at whatever aperture they go to when not attached to a Nikon body). There is really no need for a "chipped" adapter to get metering functionality, but if you want to use AF confirmation then you will need that on your adapter.

[Craig Gerard]

Same question as above for mounting on bellows. What adapters do I need for mounting the camera on bellows (Nikon, M42, T-Mount, etc)??

Ray,
Nikon to EOS, M42 to EOS, T-Mount to EOS. I prefer the 'chipped' adapters.

There are many adapters on the market. This is a good Nikon to EOS:
http://haodascreen.com/Nikon.aspx
or the Pro version:
http://haodascreen.com/PAI.aspx


Same advice as Charlie...rent a 7D (or borrow a 50D), get hold of a Nikon to EOS adapter and you are good to go. CCP2 won't play with a Canon, so in the meantime, use a compatible remote or timer; although most camera brand independent RAW conversion programs work with a tethered camera via USB, some offer more direct camera adjustment capabilities than others. Canon do supply good software when you purchase a Canon DSLR.

Don't forget that with Canon EFSC there will be no electronic flash sync signal given. (If a Canon flash is attached the camera detects it and automatically switches off EFSC and runs the mechanical first shutter curtain in order to sync and fire the flash).

1/125th would indicate your illumination is flash?



Craig

[ChrisR]

You can get a Nikon G to Canon adapter WITH a lever for the aperture ring, which would be good for a couple at least of the Nikkor Macro Gs.
(Also works on a reversed "G")

There are lots of idiosyncracies which can drive you quietly nuts with any new camera I think, but going between makes gives a full set!

Using a Canon 600D after Nikon D700 has put my therapist's charges up quite a bit. The Nikon would be twice the price even allowing for the different sensor size, so some diffrerences ( eg viewfinder) are to be expected, but others are family traits.
The major niggles -
Flash is not compatible with EFSC.
Live view ( and post view) doesn't expand enough. You cannot see pixels, whiich you can on the NikD700.
Live View is DIM because you can't set <some mode> (??) on the 600D which you CAN on the (eg) 50D. You can get it bright by changing the Exposure Mode knob away from what you want, but...

Have you tried to evaluate the wobble effect of the shutter on your Nikon? Open the shutter in the dark, then put the light on for a blink. Works with a good LED.

Have I noticed an improvement in sharpness, going from a 10MP full frame to 18MP APS-C? Yes, a liittle, particularly on scope lenses which don't cover the full frame. But with lenses which DO cover, no exciting improvement. I don't have a super-stable rig to benefit enough from EFSC. Being super fussy, flash is still sharper.
NB 18MP APS-C is the same pixel densiity as you'd get with a 48MP full frame.
I was surprised how noisy the Canon's sensor is, even at say 400 ISO, compared with the Nikon. I expected some, but not as much as there is.
Also the Canon in-camera JPEG machine isn't great so you will notice effects you won't see if you use RAW and convert on the computer. (Ken Rockwell documents that).
So you may need bigger SD cards. There's No TIFF storage, which the Nikon has.

Terthered operation is free with the Canon but costs for the Nikon, though there is "Control My Nikon" which is free or cheap.
The lack of a top-plate LCD on the 600D is a bit of a pain, but the folding rear LCD is very handy on a stand of any sort.
The more expensive Canons all have more butons, which I think would be useful overall. The ergonomics of the Canons aren't generall regarded as the best.
Battery life is about 30% of the Nikon's, but an AC adapter is $10.
And when you've taken a picture you have to press a darned BUTTON to review it!!!
Pass the Valium..

[Pau]

Live View is DIM because you can't set <some mode> (??) on the 600D which you CAN on the (eg) 50D. You can get it bright by changing the Exposure Mode knob away from what you want, but...

<some mode> (??)
This mode is Silent Live view disabling Exposure simulation.

Do you use a chipped adapter?. As I understand from my own experience with the 50D and 7D using "exposure simulation mode" that is suposed to be equivalent with the only LV mode in 600D and some posts from other members this only happens in manual mode when the camera doesn't sense an EF lens mounted and can be avoided with a chip that tells the camera that a (faked) EF lens is mounted.

[Charles Krebs]

Chris,

To make a fair comparison you really need to compare cameras that are at about the same "level". Otherwise it is like arguing that your new Toyota Corolla just does not match up well to your Mercedes S-Class sedan!

Right now in the US, a D700 body is more than 4X as expensive as a T3i ($2700 to $659). The D700 is a full frame body, and considerably "higher end" than a T3i. A much more realistic comparison would be a Canon 5D MarkII (which is actually $400 less). If you want an APS sized sensor, the 7D, for $1599, is the more highly "spec'd" Canon body.

A Canon 7D (APS), or 5DII pretty much wipes out most of your "niggle" list.

BTW, the new DSLR Sony SLT-A67 and SLT-A77 (and the two new NEX models) also have EFSC, but I do not know how they handle the flash when it is used).

[ray_parkhurst]

... The higher end bodies use separate motors for the mirror and shutter, so it is possible to avoid mirror cycling as the shutter recycles.

When you say it is possible, how is it accomplished? Is there a shooting mode that just cycles the shutter with EFSC?

Thanks...Ray

[ray_parkhurst]

Same advice as Charlie...rent a 7D (or borrow a 50D), get hold of a Nikon to EOS adapter and you are good to go. CCP2 won't play with a Canon, so in the meantime, use a compatible remote or timer; although most camera brand independent RAW conversion programs work with a tethered camera via USB, some offer more direct camera adjustment capabilities than others. Canon do supply good software when you purchase a Canon DSLR.

Sounds good. I have a local camera shop that rents 7D's.

1/125th would indicate your illumination is flash?

No, continuous with LED spotlights

[ChrisR]

Chris,

To make a fair comparison you really need to compare cameras that are at about the same "level". Otherwise it is like arguing that your new Toyota Corolla just does not match up well to your Mercedes S-Class sedan!

I don't think that's fair on the cameras..

I had attempted to address the matter with:

The Nikon would be twice the price even allowing for the different sensor size, so some differences ( eg viewfinder) are to be expected, but others are family traits.

, thinking of the D300s camera, I think something like £1090 vs the Canon's £500.
Afaik the D300s behaves almost exactly like the D700.

A closer comparison would probably be with the Nikon D5000, though I don't know much detail other than its folding LCD, like the 600D's, something I wanted for low level field work, as well as being handy on a stand.

Canon 7D, etc..
Does the live/dead view "expanding" go further than the 600D? (20x) (I'm pretty sure also you still annoyingly have to press the review button to use it.)
This is a bit of a killer actually - on one camera you can usually see the edge of in-focus bands, the other you usually can't.
Rough Jpeg conversion still applies to more i££ustrious Canons I believe.
And the flash is a serious niggle, though I have plans to get round it.
Live view screen darkening is work-roundable, not a big problem, I only look at it a couple of times before a stack.

The loss of top plate LCD, and big viewfinder, weren't meant to be "niggles", those are what the extra money should be going to. Of course there's a pile of other features, I was concentrating on the macro-relevant ones I'd stubbed my toe against

I would expect better battery life on the bigger Canons.

The comment about noise from the smaller pixels, was intended to indicate that more is not necessarily better, and not worth changing a camera (of any make) for.

So from where I'm looking, the niggles are more family traits, not price issues.


Pau - I have used a non-programmable chipped adapter and not noticed a difference in behaviour - I'll look. I think it's the same even with a Canon EF lens. If I turn to another mode or pop the flash up, I get a bright view.

I think (ie if I have the behaviour differences right) that if I didn't want the folding LCD I'd look hard at a 50D, which has a quieter sensor than the 600d, which I read is "very similar to" the 7D's sensor.

[ray_parkhurst]

The major niggles - ...
Live view ( and post view) doesn't expand enough. You cannot see pixels, whiich you can on the NikD700.

That is going to be a problem. Is this the case with all Canon? I use 100% pixel view for critical focusing.

Have you tried to evaluate the wobble effect of the shutter on your Nikon? Open the shutter in the dark, then put the light on for a blink. Works with a good LED.

Please explain further, I don't understand the test.

Have I noticed an improvement in sharpness, going from a 10MP full frame to 18MP APS-C? Yes, a liittle, particularly on scope lenses which don't cover the full frame. But with lenses which DO cover, no exciting improvement. I don't have a super-stable rig to benefit enough from EFSC. Being super fussy, flash is still sharper.

This is new info for me. I had not considered that flash could improve sharpness for an unstable setup. Will flash give better sharpness than the EFSC? Maybe I should just set up a flash on the D7000 instead of buying a new camera.

Terthered operation is free with the Canon but costs for the Nikon, though there is "Control My Nikon" which is free or cheap.
The lack of a top-plate LCD on the 600D is a bit of a pain, but the folding rear LCD is very handy on a stand of any sort.
The more expensive Canons all have more butons, which I think would be useful overall. The ergonomics of the Canons aren't generall regarded as the best.
Battery life is about 30% of the Nikon's, but an AC adapter is $10.
And when you've taken a picture you have to press a darned BUTTON to review it!!!
Pass the Valium..

Yeah, all brands have their issues. I'm used to the D7000 and Nikon in general. I guess I'll rent the 7D and see what it can do, and then decide.

Thanks...Ray

[Chris S.]

With Charlie's demonstration of EFSC's merits in mind, I picked up a Canon 40D a few months ago. How does it compare with my Nikon bodies? I have no idea. Sooner or later I may get around to trying it, but first I need an adapter (trivial), plus a shutter cable for the StackShot controller (straightforward). And I need to install and get used to Canon tethering software. If I like what I see, I'll need to add a right angle viewfinder, L-plate, and AC adapter to the Canon. I'll need to get competent with something other than Nikon's raw converter (as much as I growl at its user interface, I'm used to it, and the program arguably generates the best results available for Nikon raw files). And I'll have to learn to work with the subtleties of something rather like a different brand of paint that renders color, contrast, sharpness, and other factors a bit differently. Between Canon and Nikon, none of these things seems inherently harder/easier or better/worse. But building an efficient workflow and mastering subtleties of rendering in a new system are not trivial, and I find myself putting them off.

Meanwhile, if I use flash, I don't need EFSC. And if I use continuous light, it's pretty easy to use a long enough shutter speed so that any vibration induced by the shutter dies down and only affects a trivial fraction of the beginning of the shot. Four seconds seems to work very well on my rig even at 100x, as do eight seconds and 16 seconds.

So the mental hurdle of sticking a Canon body on the Bratcam has not yet been crossed, even with hardware in hand. And I keep thinking that it might be a better bet simply to put a decent shutter on the continuous light source. Then it would be easy, working in a darkish room, to open the camera shutter; wait a moment for any vibration to settle down; let the light-source shutter open, stay open for the appropriate exposure time, and close; then close the camera shutter. Easy!

Cheers,

--Chris

[ChrisR]

ChrisR wrote:

Have you tried to evaluate the wobble effect of the shutter on your Nikon? Open the shutter in the dark, then put the light on for a blink. Works with a good LED.

Please explain further, I don't understand the test.

Um,, well please don't be insulted here, I'm spelling it out so I can convey my thoughts, which might be wrong...
normally:
Shutter opens, camera wobbles for something around 20 milliseconds (1/50th of a second)
the exposure starts as soon as the shutter opens, so if your exposure is 1/60th you capture all the wobbles.

But does it wobble enough to be visible?
Charlie's test suggests that it does.
Without EFSC, if you delay the start of the exposure until after the 20ms, (by delaying the light) then you should see the difference.
So you set the shutter speed to 1 second, fire the shutter (in the dark), wait half a second, blink your exposing light on off, and check the result.

I had not considered that flash could improve sharpness for an unstable setup. Will flash give better sharpness than the EFSC? Maybe I should just set up a flash on the D7000 instead of buying a new camera.

I've found you can see the movement occurring DURING the flash exposure if you're pretty careless, and use a pretty full (long) flash. The obvious thing to use then is a darkened room and rear-curtain sync.
(This happens to be impossible on my Canon 600D because I don't own a Canon dedicated flash which is necessary. Not sure if that applies to posher Canons. And no you can't use the pop-up with a slave either!)
If the whole rig is swaying around the picture moves about, but the stackers can handle that! It's the high-frequency vibration that's the problem.

The heated discussion is whether constant lighting is easier/better to use than flash. If you have a good solid rig then you should have no vibration so your EFSC pics will be as sharp as when you use flash.
I use the exactly the same copy stand as Craig. Mine wobbles, his doesn't. Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner...
Some folk don't use Live view, so wouldn't benefit from using continuous light (afaik). I would, especially for polarised light etc because things are easier to adjust while you're watching.

If you're happy with flash and can use shortish (turned down) flashes, then I don't think there's any benefit using EFSC.

I found all manner of minor issues, when using modes ( eg delayed action and mirror lockup) in combination, but not enough to fret over. ( I still do, though!)

--
Lack of expandability:

Is this the case with all Canon? I use 100% pixel view for critical focusing.

I agree, is important. I don't (yet) use my Canon tethered - perhaps that gets over it??

Sure, being USED to one beast or the other is important too. After I've been using the Canon for a while I forget how the Nikon was set up, and also how to change its settings!

[lauriek]

This is new info for me. I had not considered that flash could improve sharpness for an unstable setup. Will flash give better sharpness than the EFSC? Maybe I should just set up a flash on the D7000 instead of buying a new camera.

The thing with flash is, even my crappy old E330 can sync to 1/180th second, which on a stable rig is quite quick - BUT it's better than that - at full power the flash would probably be firing for a good part of if not all of that 1/180th second, but at lower mag like 3/1 you'd be firing the flash at a vastly reduced power setting, maybe 1/128th power - and at those output settings the flash duration is absolutely minuscule, in the 1/10000ths of a second I think. That's pretty good for eliminating any vibration/movement!

I'd definitely consider this route, the cost of a (even a half decent multi head) flash setup should be less than changing systems.

ETA and I note you're using Nikon, they have a really nice looking remote firing macro flash head thing don't they! I'd look into getting a couple of those.