Advice on Microscope

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OzRay
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Advice on Microscope

Post by OzRay »

I've searched here, I've search the net, I've searched just about everywhere, but I simply can't find proper information that would give me an idea as to what options I have for a good microscope.

The details:
  • I want to use my Olympus EP-1 (Pen) camera to record images, so I need a microscope that has a camera facility. I want one with a separate camera outlet away from the eyepiece. I'm pretty sure that I can get just about any sort of adapter to suit any microscope for the Pen, so that shouldn't be a problem.

    I'm not overly concerned as to whether it's a stereo or mono microscope, as long as it meets the needs mentioned above.

    I would like a microscope that is capable of both bright field and dark field illumination.

    I'm not sure about magnification, but I'd like something that allows a reasonable range. I'm not into photographing the extremely, small such as diatoms and the like.

    I don't want anything overly complicated or over the top in terms of technical specifications, but I do want quality in design, construction and optics. I'm fairly flexible on the price, but I don't know whether say up to $1500 is achievable.

    The final thing is availability. As I live in Australia, the options need to be reasonably available. I'm not averse to ordering from overseas, but I would want to know that the supplier is reputable. I've looked in eBay and I'm not sure with what I've seen. Being able to actually look and test the microscope would be ideal.
I appreciate any and all input, and if I haven't been entirely thorough with what I'm looking for, please let me know.

Charles Krebs
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Post by Charles Krebs »

Ray,

I understand your position. All it takes is about 20 minutes on Ebay to realize the huge amount of microscope "hardware" out there. I'll throw out a few thoughts based on your "details".

You want a microscope with a trinocular head. This gives you the third "port" for your camera. If you anticipate working with subjects that move, then I strongly recommend a trinocular head that will allow you to view through the eyepieces and photograph simultaneously. This it done by "splitting" the light so that most goes to the camera, but some is still directed to the eyepieces... about an 80/20 split is common. Some trinocular heads direct 100% to either the trinocular tube or the eyepieces. As a result, you cannot see the subject when taking pictures with these.

Choosing between a stereo and a "research" style compound mono is an important decision. (To make this discussion easier I'll use "stereo" to refer to microscopes where you get a slightly different view with each eye and as a result you see a "3D" image. I'll uses "compound" to refer to a microscope where both eyes sees the same image). Stereo's are great for modest level observation, but (IMO) not as good as a compound microscope for photography above 8x. This is primarily because of the NA (numerical aperture) available. Most stereos have a NA in the 0.08 to 0.10 range. With these, the photographs begin to suffer diffraction losses when used to photograph above about 6X-8X on sensor! (Some of the new, very high-end stereo microscopes will boost the NA to 0.20 to 0.30, but the prices on these are astronomical :shock:). Photography up to 6X on sensor (and somewhat higher) is fairly easy to do with bellows or "stacked lenses". And the image quality will likely be better. You see many great examples on this site. So while I think a modest stereo is really necessary for finding, sorting, and preparing subject material, a compound microscope offers much greater photographic possibilities.

When you look at "compound" microscopes there will be two basic types of optical systems encountered. One is "finite". With these there is a specific designed "tube length" (extension) that is the distance between the shoulder of the objective and the image it forms. The aperture of the microscope eyepiece is positioned at this distance, and magnifies this image so that it can be viewed by the eye. The second type, "infinity", is not dependent on a specific "tube length", but utilizes an additional lens between the objective and the eyepiece. Just about all current models from the "Big Four" (Nikon, Olympus, Leica, Zeiss) are "infinity" designs. These are more suitable for inserting all sorts of additional components used for some sophisticated methods such as fluorescence and DIC (differential interference contrast). While "infinity" systems go back quite a few years, the big switch-over occurred in the 70's and 80's.

It is important to understand the following. Most microscope objectives were/are designed so that not all chromatic and field flatness corrections were made in the objective themselves. The manufacturers knew that the objective had to be used with either an eyepiece (finite system) or both a tube lens and an eyepiece (infinity systems). As a result final optical corrections were/are made, by design, in the eyepiece (for finite) and in the tube lens (for infinity). What this means is that the image that reaches the eyepiece in a finite system is (in most cases.... one big exception) not fully corrected. The image that reaches the eyepiece in an infinity system is as corrected as it is going to be... this having been accomplished either in the more modern objective or with the internal tube lens). This becomes an important consideration when figuring out how to "optically" connect the camera to the microscope (more on this below).

Infinity type objectives should not be used on finite microscopes, and finite objectives should not be used on infinity scopes.

The objectives from infinity systems are not interchangeable between manufacturers. You are pretty much "wedded" to a specific manufacturers offerings when you use an infinity scope.

The objectives from finite systems are more interchangeable between manufacturers (with some important caveats).
but I do want quality in design, construction and optics. I'm fairly flexible on the price, but I don't know whether say up to $1500 is achievable.
A big decision you will need to make is "new" or "used". A new microscope (with the specs you want) from one of the four "name" manufacturers will be expensive. A new microscope from a Chinese (or Indian) manufacturer will be readily available in your price range.

Many argue for looking for used "Big Four" microscopes. The feeling is that these older scopes are of higher quality mechanical construction. And if you use their more "modern" objectives (1970's and more recent) the optical quality will be better.

Others understandably don't want to be bothered by potential problems with used gear.

Both are valid approaches. My thinking is that I want the best optics I can afford, and would be willing to put up with a solid workable stand. (Sort of like in the days of film, using a camera manufacturers best lenses on one of their more modest camera bodies). Personally I started off with a Meiji ML2000, which is a smaller Japanese manufacturer with good mechanics. This is a "160mm tube length" microscope. I tried to get the best Olympus 160mm tube length objectives I could. (These are great! The Meiji 160tl objectives were just "good"). Eventually I wound up with an Olympus BHS stand. This gave me DIC lighting, and higher quality mechanics, but other than that the images were no better.

A key consideration is the optical "connection" between the microscope and camera. Normally with 35mm and larger formats (where the image was projected directly onto the film... no lens on camera body) you placed a photo-eyepiece (projection type) in the trinocular tube. The "magnification" of this photo-eyepiece was based on the size of the film format. Typically a 2.5X was used with 35mm format (24x36mm). This would appropriate for use with a "full frame" DSLR that has a sensor of the same dimensions. A problem is that with the older microscopes 35mm was about the smallest format used for photography. As a result, corrective photo-eyepieces with magnifications less than 2.5x are rare. The camera you have said you will be using has a 4/3" sensor. The size of this sensor (17.3 x 13 mm, with a diagonal of 21.6mm) would work "best" with a photo-eyepiece in the 1.25 to 1.5 range. But this sensor size could also be used in a "direct projection" mode. This is when no projection "photo-eyepiece" is used and the image goes directly from the objective to the sensor.

There was one manufacturer that made "finite" objectives that were color corrected in the objective. This was the Nikon CF series, which was introduced in the mid-70's.

Because of the sensor size you are using I'll suggest a few approaches that could work.

Look for a used Nikon Labophot or Labophot 2 with a trinocular head. (The only trinocular head I would not recommend that was made for these microscopes is the "Model F". This one does not split the light between eyepieces and trinocular tube). Look for Nikon CF objectives. There is a good chance a used Labophot will have some of these mounted already. I've put a Nikon CF brochure on my site. You might want to look it over.
http://krebsmicro.com/Nikon_CF.pdf
The lowest power CF photo-eyepiece (that would provide a large enough image at your sensor) I am aware of is 2.5X. This would be "doable" although it would provide a significant crop of the view through 10X viewing eyepieces. An interesting possibility with your camera (if you are comfortable with some DIY work :wink:) is a direct-projection arrangement. This is not really feasible with most DLR's because of the flange-to-sensor distance, but with the 20mm flange-to-sensor distance of micro 4/3 it should be possible.

A second approach would be a used Olympus 160mm tube length stand. A model CH2 (lower price, more basic model) or a BHA or BH2 are good options. Look for Olympus LB series objective. S Plan Achromats or S Plan Apo's ($). Olympus made a 1.67 NFK photoeyepiece that could be used with your camera. (But it is hard to find, and sells for about 4X the price of the much more common 2.5X)

There are other approaches as well... but I've got to go for now!

Think this stuff over and get back with more questions.

Charlie

OzRay
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Post by OzRay »

That's excellent Charlie! It's exactly what I was looking for. Clearly it's the trinocular, compound, infinity microscope that I need. Now I know what I should be looking for and asking of the few suppliers that I've located.

The price issue will be a factor and this is where I need to do more work as well. I have checked out the Olympus and Nikon sites, but as always, there are no price lists supplied.

Either way, I now have some great info to enable further research.

Once again, much appreciated. I'm more than likely to come up with more questions, but at this stage I'm going to take things slowly and examine all avenues, to ensure that I get the basics right.

Cheers

Ray

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Post by g4lab »

Ray I think Charles was suggesting you buy a 160 tube length scope, not an infinity corrected scope.

One other thing that he mentioned, that I would like to elaborate on slightly, is this. When you shoot through MOST stereo microscopes, you are getting half of a stereo view. In most cases, this is not a problem. But if for example, you wish to take measurements, it does cause problems. So the "true macro" approach is preferable. There are a few stereos that can correct for this; notably from Wild (bought up by Leica about 20 years ago or so). Zeiss also made some attachments that can center one side of a stereo, to make it shoot like a macro lens or macroscope. But these are much more expensive alternatives, all of them being high end stereos.

On the other hand in favor of the stereo mic approach is the fact that they have much more working distance and you can light from the top or the bottom. You just put your specimen under it, worry about the lighting, and composition, and shoot. With a compound scope you usually need to put the specimen on a slide or well slide, depending on whether you want to shoot alive and kicking, or dead and stained pretty colors. Sample preparation is a major skill set that is probably easier with stereos.

Go to Charles website to see what is possible. He is one of the very best.

Edit: I just took my own advice and went over to Charles website and was reminded that a lot of what people on this list do is to use the compound scope, usually with a 10x CFN Nikon objective and use Z stacking software to make scanning light micrographs. This does not involve the kind of sample prep I referred to above. It is like a stereo scope only smaller.
I have had stereos, macros and compound scopes in different cubbyholes in my brain and the Z stack techniques which you can learn much about here blur those ancient distinctions a bit.
Last edited by g4lab on Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

lauriek
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Post by lauriek »

I may be misreading your last post but I thought I would try to clarify. I think Charles was saying for your budget your choice is a second hand scope from one of the big four, or a new scope from China/India.

I'm afraid you're not going to get a new compound scope from one of the big four for anything like your budget. Apparently it's quite easy to spend $20,000 (or more!) on a new compound scope. (which I guess is why they don't publish the prices!).

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Post by ChrisR »

Would it make sense to use an Olympus CH/BH scope with Nikon finite optics, as the same objectives could also be used on bellows?

lauriek
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Post by lauriek »

I think that's a sensible sounding rig, I'm still on the lookout for a very good condition BH with trinoc head, in the UK. They do come up but tbh I don't have the budget for one at the moment, though Ray's $1500 would certainly do the job, a nice trinoc BH-2 went on ebay uk recently for £560 or so, about $900...

ETA link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT

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Post by ChrisR »

Actually for a small sensor, would a photo-eyepiece be necessary at all?

Charles Krebs
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Post by Charles Krebs »

This is about the lowest price you will see on a nice BH2 trinoc head by itself: Ebay 180407949758

Remember too that the older style head (as seen on this CH, Ebay 260263389816) fits both the CH series, and the BHA, BH2 series. They can often be had for much less money.
Would it make sense to use an Olympus CH/BH scope with Nikon finite optics, as the same objectives could also be used on bellows?
Yes, that is one way older 160mm tube length stands are usable between manufacturers. You just need to be consistent optically and use the proper viewing eyepieces and especially the proper photo-eyepieces. (Viewing seems more "forgiving" of slight CA but it seems like a larger issue when staring at it in a photo)
Actually for a small sensor, would a photo-eyepiece be necessary at all?
You would probably want one of about 1.5x to 2x for an APS sized sensor (diagonal about 28mm). Otherwise you will be recording much more than you see through typical 10X eyepieces. (Which may not be a big deal if you do not mind cropping).

Ray had mentioned a micro 4/3 camera. The sensor size on this is a little smaller, with a diagonal of 21.6mm. This is just a tiny bit larger than you see through typical 10X eyepieces. So "direct projection" (from objective to sensor with no intervening photo-eyepiece) becomes an interesting choice.

Two big things to keep in mind when considering "direct projection".

The first is that you need an image that is already chromatically corrected and does not rely on an eyepiece for final correction. This means either Nikon CF optics in a "finite" scope, or an "infinity" scope.

The second thing is being able to do it physically. Because of the depth of most DSLR bodies (about 44mm or so, flange to sensor) and the way most trinocular heads are made, you simply can't get the camera positioned close enough so that the image is in focus on the sensor while also in focus through the eyepieces ("par-focal" ). This is where the micro 4/3 is also interesting. It's flange to sensor distance is little less than half that of a typical DSLR (I think I saw that it is 20mm). This means that it is possible (not guaranteed!) that with some trinocular heads this could be accomplished.

One thing that I did not mention earlier that should be kept in mind is to not get locked into something that requires a significant investment but will not be able to satisfy more critical needs if your interest grows. This is why I am really hesitant about suggesting a new Chinese "infinity" microscope. There are plenty out there and I've heard some pretty decent reports, but I have no first-hand experience with them. (Some, like the better Motic stands are pretty expensive as well). But usually, if photography is a goal, it is like most other types of photography... you may eventually yearn for better "glass". Since interchangeability between manufacturers with "infinity" system optics is extremely "iffy", if you go the "infinity" route you want to be sure the manufacturer you select offers objectives of higher quality than a basic plan achromat.

This is also why, if you are "phobic" about used gear off of Ebay, a decent Chinese/India scope of the 160mm finite type (they still make them!) is another possibility. If the optics turn out to be junk you can look around for Nikon, Olympus, Zeiss 160mm tube length glass.

OzRay
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Post by OzRay »

Just when I thought it was safe to go into the water. :?

That Olympus one appears to be an ideal microscope for what I wanted to do. I set a price of $1500, but if somewhat more would guarantee something better and a long term proposition, then I'd consider that as well. Seriously, I think I'd be prepared to go a fair bit higher for something good.

I hope I didn't get the message all scrambled about the compound, infinity etc issues and at least now I have a visual image of what I should be looking for. The most painful thing here is that York microscopes are showing up everywhere, but they just don't appear to be good quality.

Thanks again for all the good advice.

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Post by ChrisR »

What would be "missing" on a CH as opposed to a BH? The top end is the same?

OzRay
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Post by OzRay »

Has anyone had any experience with these (this is just one of many options listed): http://cgi.ebay.com.au/40-2000x-Trinocu ... 286.c0.m14

Or this, which looks like the same thing and converts to approx $300 (Australian): http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Trinocular-Clini ... .m14.l1262

Image

OK, these microscopes are manufactured in India, but there seem to be a range of options available and I was thinking that at the prices listed, one or the other may not be a bad starting point, and it's not that big a loss if the quality isn't the greatest.

Cheers

Ray

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Post by ChrisR »

Not got a clue about those Ray, but one thing you need to find out about is how much of the fosus movement can be done with the "fine" knob. I'm sure you'll have read about other folks' rigs where Olympus , Swift, Nikon(?) and maybe others are praised because it covers the whole range.

I've got half an old beast which is built like a tank but the Fine F only covers about a millimeter. That's OK for very high magnification stacks, but fly portraits and the like need more range than that. That means you have to start at one end, go as far as the FF allows, then note what you're focussed on, wind the FF back, refocus with the coarse focus, and carry on with FF. A bit of a nuisance, and may mean you get a small out of focus band in your photo if you get it wrong.

The other part of Fine focus is that you need it to be FINE ENOUGH for high mag stacks. Many give you a one micron movement for one division on the knob, and you'll be down there somewhere for 20 - 30x mag (See elf's recent calculator).

That being said, the scopes you've found look to a microscope ignoramus like me to be a lot of bang per buck.
If you're doing bigger bugs, and flowers, say, no microscope is going to be ideal, so you'll be considering some different, ie additional rig which gives you more access, choice of lenses etc. Some overlap in capability would be nice.
With a 5x scope objective you'll be snapping bugs a few millimeters across. If we assume it has similar depth, then you could use a fine focus range of, again, a few millimeters.

I'd be interested to know what these you've found, can do.

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Post by Charles Krebs »

Ray,

I'm fairly sure the trinocular heads from this Indian manufacturer are either 100% eyepieces or 100% trinocular tube. OK for single images of a static subject, but a real PITA for doing "stacking" or working with live subjects.

See description here. I think this is the same head:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Trinocular-Head-for ... 286.c0.m14

Also, coaxial focus controls are so much nicer to use regularly. You can find them (and light "splitting" trinocular heads) on some inexpensive Chinese models. Like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/40X-2000X-LAB-TRINO ... 286.c0.m14

But I have no clue about mechanical or optical quality.

OzRay
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Post by OzRay »

Charles Krebs wrote:Ray,

I'm fairly sure the trinocular heads from this Indian manufacturer are either 100% eyepieces or 100% trinocular tube. OK for single images of a static subject, but a real PITA for doing "stacking" or working with live subjects.

See description here. I think this is the same head:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Trinocular-Head-for ... 286.c0.m14

Also, coaxial focus controls are so much nicer to use regularly. You can find them (and light "splitting" trinocular heads) on some inexpensive Chinese models. Like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/40X-2000X-LAB-TRINO ... 286.c0.m14

But I have no clue about mechanical or optical quality.
I'd guess that the quality wouldn't be anywhere even near that of the known brands, but I'm thinking that, just as a starter, getting something like that is a small loss if it isn't the greatest. On the otherhand, it might be reasonable and good for getting a feel for what I really want.

Cheers

Ray

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