Flash vs Continuous lighting

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UncleChip
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Flash vs Continuous lighting

Post by UncleChip »

I have been at this photography lark for over 20 years, even did it professionally for a few years, I thought I knew a lot, my recent posts clearly shows I don’t :shock: :shock: :)

And here is another example :(
If you have a 100ws strobe and a 100ws continuous light all things being equal they will give you the same level of subject illumination, so let’s say at iso 100 with the strobe on full power I need F8 to get a correct exposure, shutter at 1/250, now I switch the strobe for a 100w continuous light, with iso at 100 and F8 what will my shutter be?I have no idea without physically trying it,

There are now several compact decent powered continuous lights available, 30w-40w-60w-100w so in theory I have as much light available as I do with my strobes,
Pros:-
Excellent subject illumination
Electronic/silent shutter
No misfires or battery issues
Cons:-
Heat from lights
Fan on light needs consideration
Shutter speed, though I believe this is not the same now with the modern units

Am I missing anything?
Anybody using continuous lights?
Anybody made any lights?

enricosavazzi
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Re: Flash vs Continuous lighting

Post by enricosavazzi »

UncleChip wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:03 am
[...]If you have a 100ws strobe and a 100ws continuous light all things being equal they will give you the same level of subject illumination, so let’s say at iso 100 with the strobe on full power I need F8 to get a correct exposure, shutter at 1/250, now I switch the strobe for a 100w continuous light, with iso at 100 and F8 what will my shutter be?I have no idea without physically trying it[...]
I think what you did not consider is that the strobe requires the front shutter curtain (mechanical or electronic, makes no difference unless the sensor uses a global shutter) to fully open, then to trigger the strobe, then to wait a suitable time to let the flash emission decay to near zero (a few ms), and finally enough time to allow the rear shutter curtain to close. The whole process may require between 250 and 500 ms, but the actual light emission lasts only a few ms. So with a continuous light source of the same power in Ws you should expose for a time roughly equal to the flash emission, perhaps around 1/500 s.

Considering that the 100 Ws strobe only emits for a couple of ms, to get the same energy density from a continuous LED source you would need a 100 * 500 = 50 kW LED source.
--ES

chris_ma
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Re: Flash vs Continuous lighting

Post by chris_ma »

UncleChip wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:03 am
If you have a 100ws strobe and a 100ws continuous light all things being equal they will give you the same level of subject illumination, so let’s say at iso 100 with the strobe on full power I need F8 to get a correct exposure, shutter at 1/250, now I switch the strobe for a 100w continuous light, with iso at 100 and F8 what will my shutter be?
it depends on several things, but mainly on the efficiency of the lights and their beam angle.

but first to clarify:
Ws on strobes stands for watt seconds, and is an indication on total energy per one burst.
there is no Ws rating on continuous lights, but W stands for Watt and is a measure of power (energy per time).

theoretically you could say that a 100W light burning for 1 second will output 100Ws of total energy. so in that sense if you set your camera exposure time to 1sec you'd have the same exposure as a flash unit with 100Ws on a single burst.
if your exposure time is 1/10sec, then the flash still delivers the full energy, the light only 1/10 of that (10Ws)
if your exposure time is 1/100sec, then the flash still delivers the full energy, the light only 1/100 of that (1Ws)

this ignores the fact that 100Ws of energy produces a different amount of light in different technologies. for example a 100W tungsten light will only produce about 25% light output of a 100W LED light, and two different 100W LED lights could easily differ that one produces twice as mich light as the other.

I didn't research flash efficiency, but I'd guess they are somewhat more efficient then modern LEDs for the same energy used.

There are now several compact decent powered continuous lights available, 30w-40w-60w-100w so in theory I have as much light available as I do with my strobes,
...IF you set your exposure time to 1second (or possibly a few seconds if your flash has higher efficiency)
Pros:-
Excellent subject illumination
Electronic/silent shutter
No misfires or battery issues
Cons:-
Heat from lights
Fan on light needs consideration
Shutter speed, though I believe this is not the same now with the modern units
i'd add:
pro:
- easier to set up and focus
con:
- more prone to blur due to vibrations (longer exposure time)
- light spectrum of flash is still more uniform then nearly all LEDs
Last edited by chris_ma on Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
chris

Beatsy
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Re: Flash vs Continuous lighting

Post by Beatsy »

Assuming this is all about rail-based extreme macro.

Diffusion is a fundamentally important part of the lighting - for avoidance of annoying specular reflections. Simplistically, from the subject's perspective, light should come from all directions. The subject's "sky" should be full of light. Of course, if you achieve that, then the lighting will be very flat. So to show some relief and a bit of (controlled) shadow you reduce, or even remove/mask some light coming from certain directions. Or increase some light from other directions. To that end, it's helpful to have multiple light sources positioned around the diffuser (whether shining through the diffusion material or bouncing off it, or both). At least two main lights, and sometimes others for detail or rim-lighting etc.

With that in mind, I make the following observations about flashes.

1. They're big and cumbersome compared to the specimen, and potentially difficult to position precisely and close to the diffuser(s) - so are arguably only suitable as the (two) "main light" sources.
2. You can't see the effect of the lighting without taking a picture. Some flashes have a modelling light, but it's invariably positioned differently to the flash tube, and also much dimmer - so the preview is inacurate.
3. The photo-electric effect can cause delicate structures (e.g. butterfly wing scales) to "twitch" when the flash goes off - blurring the result.
4. Flashes misfire. Not a big deal in normal photography, you just take the shot again. But if you're using a motorised rail - you've potentially ruined a whole stack's worth of shots.

For these reasons, I always use continuous lights, a complete mix. My mainstays are a couple of flexible goosenecks from a halogen light source, but regularly supplemented by other "detail" lights of many sorts. LED, halogen, even torches etc. I can see what effect the lighting has at all times, and at all positions through the stack (by racking through in live-view prior to starting the capture).

In summary - if you hold the view that "it's all about the light" (as I do) I think continuous light sources are far superior in this particularextreme macro context.

All IMO of course. I'm sure others will have radically different views and I look forward to reading them :D

UncleChip
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Re: Flash vs Continuous lighting

Post by UncleChip »

Thx, some interesting comments,

As I am trying smaller subjects flash is becoming cumbersome and I think you can be more flexible with continuous,

For the worst test in the history of this site I illuminated a subject with my light panel, it is way too big so a lot of waisted light, I think it’s a 30w panel, I then put a white card to cover the panel and bounced my 100w strobe off it, I needed to drop the power on the strobe to 1/4 to get the same exposure, so roughly in the same ballpark

The camera and lens was at 5x f4 iso100 1/8th,

It gives me a starting point,
If I got 2x 60w leds as the main lights I may well get the shutter up to a 100th without upping the ISO, :-k

UncleChip
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Re: Flash vs Continuous lighting

Post by UncleChip »

Beatsy wrote:
1. They're big and cumbersome compared to the specimen, and potentially difficult to position precisely and close to the diffuser(s) - so are arguably only suitable as the (two) "main light" sources.
2. You can't see the effect of the lighting without taking a picture. Some flashes have a modelling light, but it's invariably positioned differently to the flash tube, and also much dimmer - so the preview is inacurate.
3. The photo-electric effect can cause delicate structures (e.g. butterfly wing scales) to "twitch" when the flash goes off - blurring the result.
4. Flashes misfire. Not a big deal in normal photography, you just take the shot again. But if you're using a motorised rail - you've potentially ruined a whole stack's worth of shots.

For these reasons, I always use continuous lights, a complete mix. My mainstays are a couple of flexible goosenecks from a halogen light source, but regularly supplemented by other "detail" lights of many sorts. LED, halogen, even torches etc. I can see what effect the lighting has at all times, and at all positions through the stack (by racking through in live-view prior to starting the capture).

In summary - if you hold the view that "it's all about the light" (as I do) I think continuous light sources are far superior in this particularextreme macro context.

All IMO of course. I'm sure others will have radically different views and I look forward to reading them :D
Thx for this, a few questions,
What power are your lights?
What is a typical shutter speed/iso?

One of the things I am trying to do is live stacking, for this I will utilise the 20FPS of the camera so I need the camera faster than 1/20th and hopefully ISO of 100

Beatsy
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Re: Flash vs Continuous lighting

Post by Beatsy »

I can't give a useful answer as I have no "typical" setup or settings to describe. I use whatever lighting, shutter speeds and ISO suits the subject or situation (in a "studio" setting). Sorry.

FWIW - I have numerous lighting options (some bought for regular photography). The halogen goosenecks I mentioned before, various COB studio lamps (e.g. 65W Amarans and other brands), bright torches, simple flat-panel LED desk lamps, LED and halogen spot lamps, 200w car headlamp bulbs, plus various speedlites and strobes - all sorts of things. Shutter speeds range from 1/500th sec, to several seconds. I try to keep ISO down, but don't care if it needs to be higher. That's thanks to DxO PureRAW (now version 3). I shoot RAW and pre-process through PureRAW if the images end up too noisy. I prefer ISO 100 but will go up to 12800, maybe 16000 if I need to.

I haven't done any live stacking in the studio. What I have done was "in the field" and handheld - winding the focus ring or moving the camera/lens while shooting bursts - or moving the subject while bursting (e.g. insect on a twig). Usually in bright sunlight (diffused or bounced) or at 5fps using a twin-head macro flash and diffusers. Occasionally with slaved Speedlites nearby on tripods. Nothing much above 3.5x mag though (using an adapted Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1x-5x macro lens).

Edit: a couple of handheld stacks here --> viewtopic.php?f=26&t=43687&p=274922

UncleChip
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Re: Flash vs Continuous lighting

Post by UncleChip »

Today I have been rummaging through my draws :shock:

1x comer video light
4x cube lights
2x 900 led light panels

With the comer 1 panel and 1 cube I got 1/100 f4 iso 200 =D>
The panels are too big and the cubes are battery only but it’s given me a good idea, I am certainly going to pursue this, seeing your work and live effects of the light shaping is superior to strobes,
I think I was prejudice toward strobes because I have lots of them and are very familiar with them,

Slightly off topic
In my past testing I set up cross polarisation, one on camera then one on a strobe left and right, the strobes are circular with a 67mm filter added, what I found was the reflections where indeed reduced but the light was very harsh due to the direct light from the strobe, I thought the well diffused with no polarisation was better than the harsh polarised shot,
Playing with the light panels made me wonder if I could get the softer light by using a polarised sheet on a light panel, if I understand it right the effect of the polarisation would reduce the effective size of the light planet to the subject size in in the polarisation angle, so for example a subject of 30 x 30 x 30mm would receive light 250x 30mm from a light panel of 250x250mm, that’s 4x the light spread than from the strobe, have I got this right?

Even more off topic, in looking at all the continuous lighting options I see many microscope ring leds, lots of different types and prices, yet in looking at the setups that use objectives I don’t recall seeing any?

Lou Jost
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Re: Flash vs Continuous lighting

Post by Lou Jost »

Beatsy, regarding the effect of flash on butterfly scales, I have not heard that this involves the photo-electric effect. I think the consensus is that it is caused by sudden heating of the scale and resulting air turbulence when the light hits it. Is there a reference (or personal observation) that argues otherwise?

chris_ma
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Re: Flash vs Continuous lighting

Post by chris_ma »

Lou Jost wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:22 pm
Beatsy, regarding the effect of flash on butterfly scales, I have not heard that this involves the photo-electric effect. I think the consensus is that it is caused by sudden heating of the scale and resulting air turbulence when the light hits it. Is there a reference (or personal observation) that argues otherwise?
I have no experience with this, but just had the idea that if anybody can put a butterfly wing under vacuum it might give some definitive answer on this (well, it could still be thermal expansion of the wing itself)
chris

iconoclastica
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Re: Flash vs Continuous lighting

Post by iconoclastica »

UncleChip wrote:
Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:03 am
Am I missing anything?
Anybody using continuous lights?
Anybody made any lights?
Regarding foreground and background, I much prefer to have continuous light at the one and flash on the other. Although it is very well possible to balance the output of either two flashes or two CLs, it's so much easier to regulate the CL by shutter time and the flash by either the flash volume knob, ISO , or a combination of them.

Normally, I have the CL to light the foreground (the object). Flash does perform equally well, but since the electronic viewfinder remains (near) black it's rather hard to prepare the set. However, with higher magnifications (5x and more) I often use a speedlight for the object to reduce visible vibrations. It draws from a 6V car battery so I have no charge-waiting times. The background flash is a mains fed studio flash unit.

As CL I use a 25W spiral tube photo lamp for shutter times from 1/100 to 1/5th. I have used this set up for years. Recently I am experiencing issues that forced me to use a custom white balance. Possibly the lamp is getting too old now.
--- felix filicis ---

Chris S.
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Re: Flash vs Continuous lighting

Post by Chris S. »

Even more off topic, in looking at all the continuous lighting options I see many microscope ring leds, lots of different types and prices, yet in looking at the setups that use objectives I don’t recall seeing any?
I have both flash and continuous-illumination ring lights, but rarely use them. I recommend against buying them for most uses.

A ring-light produces very flat light without modeling. We photographers most often want to create modeling—controlled use of shadows—to provide visual information about the subject’s shape and texture. Attractive and useful modeling is difficult to create with a ring light. Also, ring lights can create annoying, ring-shaped specular highlights.

I do occasionally use a ring light for quick documentary purposes. In these situations, I want to record visual information in a hurry, and don’t care if the image is appealing to the eye. As an example, sometimes I want a close-up photo of a part that I want to machine an adapter for. A ring light will give me a well-lit, shadow-less view that I can blow up on my monitor for study. As another example, ring lights have often been used by dentists to take intra-oral close-up photos of patient’s mouths for their records.

I think this is why one sees ring lights advertised for industrial or laboratory use, but not in common use by photomacrographers. In industry, speed and information capture are most important. But in the photomacrography community, we far more often value images that convey the shape and texture of the subject, and please the eye. For this sort of work, we are better off using a number of discrete light sources whose size, shape, distance, and diffusion we can control.

You also commented about harsh lighting you experienced with cross-polarization, and asked about the apparent size of the diffuse light source when cross-polarized.

I don’t have experience that addresses directly the situations you’ve described. But I have used cross-polarized light in ways that might offer potentially useful, if off-topic, insight. Cross-pol on-camera lighting seems fraught with issues. Alternatively, cross-pol lighting placed well off-axis, oblique to the subject, can be very revealing of certain aspects of a subject (such as cracks, in one important subject I documented).

And—of course—if you diffuse your light with cross-pol, you will want to place your polarization sheet on the subject side of the diffuser. (No doubt you know this well!)

Cheers,

--Chris S.

Lou Jost
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Re: Flash vs Continuous lighting

Post by Lou Jost »

Speaking of cross polarizers and ring flashes, Olympus made a cross-polarizing filter for their dedicated macro ring flash. It consisted of a polarizing filter for the lens and a precisely crossed polarizer surrounding it for the ring light. I have the polarizer and it can be quite useful (without the ring light). You can put a diffuser behind the polarizer and use small flashes or continuous lights behind that.

UncleChip
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Re: Flash vs Continuous lighting

Post by UncleChip »

Some excellent answers, thanks,

Another lighting question 🙋‍♂️
If you have a large TV, sat on your couch 4m away you hold your phone up and match the size of the tv, so you have a 6” phone 3 feet away and a 60” TV 12 feet away, (for visualisation)
Now swap these out for light sources with the same diffusion and adjusted power so the subject has the same illumination, so you have the same cone of light hitting the subject from both lights,
I understand that light fall off would be greater in the closer light source but everything else should be equal, am I missing anything? In this situation highlights should be the same apart from the greater light fall off would emphasize the closest points on the subject to the light, correct?

chris_ma
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Re: Flash vs Continuous lighting

Post by chris_ma »

UncleChip wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:46 am
Another lighting question 🙋‍♂️
If you have a large TV, sat on your couch 4m away you hold your phone up and match the size of the tv, so you have a 6” phone 3 feet away and a 60” TV 12 feet away, (for visualisation)
Now swap these out for light sources with the same diffusion and adjusted power so the subject has the same illumination, so you have the same cone of light hitting the subject from both lights,
I understand that light fall off would be greater in the closer light source but everything else should be equal, am I missing anything? In this situation highlights should be the same apart from the greater light fall off would emphasize the closest points on the subject to the light, correct?
yes, that's an excellent description of how the softness of a light is largely a function of the light cone when viewed from the subject (the other being the diffusion material - Lee 216 is a nice one to start with).

the light fall off can make a big difference in the mood though.
chris

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