Dichroic filter confusion

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viktor j nilsson
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Dichroic filter confusion

Post by viktor j nilsson »

​After a long break, I'm back on track with my fluorescence setup, described here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=41817
Since last time, I have bought a proper Zeiss Standard stand, and a 50W HBO lamphouse.

My first priority now is to put together the filters for a UV cube. The plan is to use the following filters that I have:

Excitation filter: Schott UG1
Dichroic mirror: Chroma T400LP​​
Emission filter: Omega 420ALP

Putting together published spectra would result in a filter cube looking like this:
Image

Looks good so far.

However, I am a little confused when I look at the filters:
Image

Specifically, I find it odd that the T400LP and 420ALP looks so different to each other. The T400LP is clearly yellow when viewed straight through, and bluish-violet when viewed at an angle. The 420ALP is almost entirely transparent, and has no clear tint when viewed at an angle.

I went to my dark wardrobe to do some tests with my 365nm UV torch (Convoy S2+) and a piece of white, strongly fluorescent, printer paper.

On its own, the UV torch emits some visible purple light, and the paper strongly fluoresce blue.

When the UV torch shines through the UG1 filter, there is virtually no visible light coming through, but the paper strongly fluoresce blue. As expected.

When the UV torch shines through both the UG1 and the 420ALP filters, the paper is nearly perfectly black, no fluorescence and no visible light. This is consistent with the 420ALP blocking nearly all UV.

When the UV torch shines straight through the UG1, but hits the 420ALP at a 45° angle, the paper fluoresce strongly in the reflected light. This is consistent with the 420ALP acting as a dichroic mirror that pass visible light and reflect UV.

When the UV torch shines through the UG1 and the T400LP filter, the paper fluoresce blue. The fluorescence is much weaker than with only the UG1, but significanly stronger than with the 420ALP. This is consistent with the spectrum, i.e. that the T400LP transmits some UV.

When the UV torch shines through the UG1, and hit the T400LP at a 45° angle, the paper fluoresces in the reflected light, but considerably weaker than with the 420ALP. This suggests that the T400LP filter reflects less UV than the 420ALP. Again, this is consistent with the published spectrum.

So, from what I can tell, the filters generally behave the way they are supposed to based on their transmittance spectra.

But I cannot wrap my head around why they appear so different to the eye.

It makes sense to me that the T400LP looks yellow and reflect violet - you get yellow if you block violet and blue, and transmit everything else.
But I cannot for the world of me understand why the 420ALP looks transparent to the eye and has no color tint when viewed at an angle. I really thought that the reflected light (400-420nm range) would look purple to the eye.

I got the 420ALP from Omega's surplus shop on eBay, BJOMEJAG, so I would have assumed that it was legit. However, I am starting to get a little paranoid that I have gotten the wrong filter. To me, my observations suggest that the 420ALP reflects UV in the non-visible part of the spectrum below ~380nm, but transmit everyhing in the visible spectrum above 380nm or so.

What do you guys think?

viktor j nilsson
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Re: Dichroic filter confusion

Post by viktor j nilsson »

Image

Well, the labeling on the "420ALP" filter is puzzling. I didn't find anything matching it online, and just assumed that it was some sort of custom code that didn't mean anything. But now that I have started to question the filter identity, I'm re-evaluating this interpretation. The full text reads: 'XB06 350WR80 12375 9339'.

What if this filter is rather a 350nm long pass filter?

I've just assumed that I could trust Om Omejagme's eBay store, but then I found this thread: https://www.ultravioletphotography.com/ ... e-is-gone/

Where our friend Jonathan Crowther (JMC) writes:
While some of what I've ordered from there has been ok, I've had some filters which did not match the spectra provided with them. The response was 'they're seconds, it's not surprising if they don't exactly match the spectra'. Yes, they have some cheap stuff, but I also need to be able to rely on what I'm ordering.
So, I guess that I may have been fooled. Which is a real pity! I really had high expectations for that 420ALP filter.

Pau
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Re: Dichroic filter confusion

Post by Pau »

The writings on the "420 ALP" ring seems really mismatched with that specification but...calm down

I have two UV filter cubes and in both of them the dichroic mirror has the yellow/violet reflections and the long pass emission filter seems perfectly colourless:
(I) Chroma ET380x (EX) // Omega BS 410DCLP (BS)//Omega LP 410AELP(EM)
(II)AT350/50x (EX) // T400lp (BS) //ET425lp (EM) "Chroma 49025 - ET - DAPI/FluoroGold LP (Nikon)

(I) is more luminous and works better with a 385nm LED while (II) is cleaner and only works well with 365nm LEDs. Both work well if I use the UG1 as exciter

So, if the filters work as expected and -the most important for your eyes- the LP emission filter (the ALP) cuts off UV effectively you're OK.

It's a pity that Bjomega online store no longer exists after Omega optical company was sold last year. Certainly they made some mistakes but it was a good source for amateurs.

I'm going to send you a PM
Pau

Duke
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Re: Dichroic filter confusion

Post by Duke »

I have the 420ALP also - it colourless, as it should be. My setup is 420ALP emitter + 400DCLP BS + 410ASP exiter, to use 405nm laser and 365-400nm diodes. 400DCLP is colourless as well, while 410ASP is a mirror. I've tested all filters with the spectrophotometer, everything is corresponding to the description papers supplied with the filters. All filters supplied by Bob Johnson in his private store on eBay, Omega or Bjomejag are leftovers and cut-offs or QC rejected samples, so yes they do often come with minor defects or mislabeled shells, so just ignore that. There is no way it's 350WB80, otherwise it would appear dark-violet filter with mirror like surface.
Yellow Chroma filter looks suspicious, there's no way to me it has transmission in blue-violet range, looks to me like typical 515LP.
PS It's a shame we've lost such a great supply store for the optical components. It was good while it lasted.
“Thoroughly conscious ignorance is the prelude to every real advance in science.” - JCM

viktor j nilsson
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Re: Dichroic filter confusion

Post by viktor j nilsson »

Thanks, Duke! Now I am simultaneously enlighted and confused in new ways!

You say that your 400DCLP is colourless, but this one looks similarly yellow to mine, and Pau says that his is also yellow:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/KboAAOSw ... -l1600.jpg
From:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/273781051736

I may bring these filters to work and see if I can run them through a spectrophotometer.

Duke
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Re: Dichroic filter confusion

Post by Duke »

viktor j nilsson wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:32 pm
Thanks, Duke! Now I am simultaneously enlighted and confused in new ways!

You say that your 400DCLP is colourless, but this one looks similarly yellow to mine, and Pau says that his is also yellow
Sorry actually mine is 401DRLP new technology filter (aka RapidEdge filter), still should perform the same way.
Note that dichroic coatings appear to change their characteristic when turned on the angle, usually they appear to move to shorten waves with coefficient of about 0.10%-0.15% per degree, so for 45 degrees beamsplitter should be at 95% of the nominal wavelength, so 400DCLP should perform ~400/0.95 ~~ 415-430nm when used at normal (0 degrees). It should still appear transparent though, maybe with slightest tint of yellow, cause the human eye sensitivity is limited to 440-680 nm range.
Here's the picture of my LP filters
Screenshot_20211025_084138.JPG
“Thoroughly conscious ignorance is the prelude to every real advance in science.” - JCM

Lou Jost
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Re: Dichroic filter confusion

Post by Lou Jost »

The "T400LP" [edited from "420"] filter also does not match my nearly colorless ones. That yellow is way to strong.
Last edited by Lou Jost on Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Pau
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Re: Dichroic filter confusion

Post by Pau »

Lou Jost wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:55 am
The "420" filter also does not match my nearly colorless ones. That yellow is way to strong.
Do you mean the T400LP BS?

If so it also looks too yellow for me, more like my 460BS, although it's difficult to judge without testing
My Chroma T400LP has a yellow tint but much weaker
Pau

Lou Jost
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Re: Dichroic filter confusion

Post by Lou Jost »

Yes, sorry, I meant his T400LP

viktor j nilsson
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Re: Dichroic filter confusion

Post by viktor j nilsson »

I'm also becoming suspicious of the T400LP. I'll run them both in the spectrophotometer at work on Wednesday, I'll post the results here then.

jmc
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Re: Dichroic filter confusion

Post by jmc »

Hi Viktor,
I saw my name about Omega filters and thought I'd comment.
I wouldn't worry about your T400 looking to be a different colour to your 420ALP filter. The colour you see will be strongly dependent on the nature of the coating that has been used. It looks like the wrong filter ring has been used for the 420ALP. I've not see that filter notation from them before, but they did do a 330WB80 which was a UV pass filter and would look black. If yours was a UV pass filter it wouldn't look clear in visible light. However it does emphasize the need to test your filters transmission where possible.
Dichroic coatings vary their transmission as a function of angle of the incoming light, as Duke mentioned. If you are measuring your filters transmission make sure that you measure them at the angle they would be seeing the light in the beamsplitter.
Just as a final note about Omega and my experience with them. I liked Omega's ebay store as they were a good source of cheap filters, although not as cheap after I had paid customs and VAT for getting them to the UK. The issue I had was that the spectra supplied with them were not always the same as what I measured. Sometimes the differences were small, other times it was quite significant. This is the issue when buying seconds, or runs which didn't quite match the intended specs.
Good luck with it and let us know what you find.
Jonathan Crowther

viktor j nilsson
Posts: 423
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:43 am
Location: Lund, Sweden

Re: Dichroic filter confusion

Post by viktor j nilsson »

Well, the data from the ocean optics uv-vis spectrometer is in. And... the T400LP is not what it claimed to be, but the 420ALP from Omega's eBay store is legit.

First, the yellow T400LP:
t400lp.jpg

If it looks like a yellow filter, it is a yellow filter.
There was a slight shift when rotating the filter from 0 to 45 degrees, but it is clearly not a T400LP.

And then the data for the 420ALP:
420alp measurements.jpg
Pretty good match.

jmc
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Re: Dichroic filter confusion

Post by jmc »

Wow, that T400LP is certainly not what it should be according to the reference spectrum.
Jonathan Crowther

Pau
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Re: Dichroic filter confusion

Post by Pau »

Yes, it is LP460 or more like LP470. Too yellow to be true :(

Would be good for violet excitation
Pau

viktor j nilsson
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Re: Dichroic filter confusion

Post by viktor j nilsson »

Pau wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:54 am
Yes, it is LP460 or more like LP470. Too yellow to be true :(

Would be good for violet excitation
Yes, you are right! I had been missing a filter for building a violet-blue filter cube. Maybe this could work:
violetblue fluorescence.jpg
'yellowLP' is the yellow rectangular filter mislabeled T400LP.

Do you think it would work okay to use it as emission filter, even though the Y52 dichroic mirror would have a somewhat higher cut-off wavelength? I am thinking that the relatively [edit: high] transmittance in the 350-450nm range would prevent me from using the 'yellowLP' filter as DM for blue-violet excitation.

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