Minimum size of optical breadboard

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rjlittlefield
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Post by rjlittlefield »

Admin comment:

It's been noted that there has been some scrambling of names in one of the above posts, attributed to Smokedaddy but actually written by Chris S.

We took this thread offline for a while to investigate the issue, but we're now putting it back online with the names still mixed up.

Investigation continues...

--Rik

enricosavazzi
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Post by enricosavazzi »

Smokedaddy wrote:In order to purchase a similar optical center punch, would you consider this item acceptable, or can you suggest a better alternative? (Reviews seem to prefer a version by “On Mark,” which appears to exist no more, or if it does exist, it is perhaps in a debauched form.)

https://www.amazon.com/Flexbar-Optical- ... merReviews
I have this exact one, and it has improved my precision about tenfold, compared to using a hand-held punch and no magnifier.

However, I never tried any other model, so I cannot compare.
--ES

Peter M. Macdonald
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Post by Peter M. Macdonald »

Laying out for hole punching and drilling using scribes can be difficult. It is often easier to do the layout on a computer first. This can be in any software which allows the precise placing of small dots at the centres of the desired drilling positions. Then print out, either on large sticky labels or on paper which can be attached to the metal plate with spray adhesive. The you can punch the holes very accurately.

Smokedaddy
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Post by Smokedaddy »

Edited: Added the front side of the gate. <duh>

BTW, for whatever it's worth, the picture I posted with the prices for the aluminum pieces are remnants. The price is based on the current prices of aluminum per pound. They sell all different alloys too, including round stock, square, and plate and they are all remnants. The place I go to has a ton of smaller bins too with just about any alloy and 'profile' you can think of. Everything is sold based on the current price per pound of that alloy. In the last pic below I purchased a couple of copper remnant sheets (the squares) that are in the center of that gate I designed and fabricated. I had the copper sheets clear coated. That's the backside of the gate, not the street side.

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-JW:
Last edited by Smokedaddy on Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Smokedaddy
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Post by Smokedaddy »

enricosavazzi wrote:In order to purchase a similar optical center punch, would you consider this item acceptable, or can you suggest a better alternative?
It looks fine to me. I have 3 optical center punches. I made the one in my previous posting. There's a tutor someone on the internet for DIY one but this was years ago. I bought the one below way back in 2004 from KBC Tools. I just looked up the receipt. <g> It was $48.97. It worked fine.

https://www.kbctools.com/products/HAND% ... /1353.aspx

Image

Image

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Post by Chris S. »

Peter M. Macdonald wrote:Laying out for hole punching and drilling using scribes can be difficult. It is often easier to do the layout on a computer first. This can be in any software which allows the precise placing of small dots at the centres of the desired drilling positions. Then print out, either on large sticky labels or on paper which can be attached to the metal plate with spray adhesive. The you can punch the holes very accurately.
Peter, I wanted similar utility for the last part I made, but tried a different method: Acetone transfer. Turns out that if you print your layout on a laser printer, turn it upside down on your metal, and rub the print with acetone, the printed toner leaves the paper and sticks to the metal. Voila! you have metal with your exact plan printed on it--albeit backwards.

To solve the backwards problem, I printed my layout in mirror image, so that it would read correctly after being placed upside down on the work piece for the transfer. I suspect that most CAD programs offer mirror image printing, but the rudimentary freebie I used did not. So I printed to Adobe acrobat, hit the Adobe checkmark for mirror-image printing, and the rest was easy. Placed the mirror-image print upside down on the aluminum stock, taped the corners down temporary, and gently rubbed the backside of the print stock while saturating the print stock with acetone. Within a minute or so, there was a perfect design print right on the metal.

For practice, I probably tried this five or six times before becoming confident; Since each try took about a minute, and mistakes were easily cleaned off with acetone, this was a quick, cheap learning experience. One nice aspect of this approach was that I could also print drill bit sizes next to each hole

Cheers,

--Chris S.

Peter M. Macdonald
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Post by Peter M. Macdonald »

Chris,

Interesting to know that acetone can be used as a transfer for a laser print.

Like your idea of labeling the holes with their drill sizes.

Peter

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

Chris S. wrote:
Peter M. Macdonald wrote:Laying out for hole punching and drilling using scribes can be difficult. It is often easier to do the layout on a computer first. This can be in any software which allows the precise placing of small dots at the centres of the desired drilling positions. Then print out, either on large sticky labels or on paper which can be attached to the metal plate with spray adhesive. The you can punch the holes very accurately.
Peter, I wanted similar utility for the last part I made, but tried a different method: Acetone transfer. Turns out that if you print your layout on a laser printer, turn it upside down on your metal, and rub the print with acetone, the printed toner leaves the paper and sticks to the metal. Voila! you have metal with your exact plan printed on it--albeit backwards.

To solve the backwards problem, I printed my layout in mirror image, so that it would read correctly after being placed upside down on the work piece for the transfer. I suspect that most CAD programs offer mirror image printing, but the rudimentary freebie I used did not. So I printed to Adobe acrobat, hit the Adobe checkmark for mirror-image printing, and the rest was easy. Placed the mirror-image print upside down on the aluminum stock, taped the corners down temporary, and gently rubbed the backside of the print stock while saturating the print stock with acetone. Within a minute or so, there was a perfect design print right on the metal.

For practice, I probably tried this five or six times before becoming confident; Since each try took about a minute, and mistakes were easily cleaned off with acetone, this was a quick, cheap learning experience. One nice aspect of this approach was that I could also print drill bit sizes next to each hole

Cheers,

--Chris S.
Chris,

Clever :D

Wonder if this would work with inkjet and just using water?

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

viktor j nilsson
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Post by viktor j nilsson »

I'm so grateful for this discussion.

I'm starting to agree with Chris S, most of us - myself included - probably don't really need an optical breadboard. I don't need the holes to be perfectly aligned, and I don't have any use for most of them. And I really really like the idea to make my own, for economical and practical reasons, and as a learning experience.

That said, I went ahead and bought the 150x450x12 mm Thorlabs breadboard. The biggest reasons for me where that

- it wasn't much more expensive than a raw 200x500x12mm piece of aluminum sheet.
- after buying a center punch etc, I'd actually pay more for the DIY one, even if I can use those things for other projects
- it looks pretty elegant with its nice finish, which is a bonus in this crowded household
- the relatively longer and narrower format more efficiently use the space I have than the 200x500 or 200x400 pre-cut aluminum sheets that's cheaply available on eBay from Germany.
- I fear that I don't really have the time to make a DIY solution that actually looks and works perfectly, so there's a big risk I'd sooner or later will feel need to do it all over again
- depreciation, the DIY one would presumably have almost zero resale value.

viktor j nilsson
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Post by viktor j nilsson »

Smokedaddy, Chris S.,
I really wish I had places locally with a selection like that, or knew a machinist like Don Wilson. Sadly, I don't.

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

viktor j nilsson wrote:I'm so grateful for this discussion.

I'm starting to agree with Chris S, most of us - myself included - probably don't really need an optical breadboard. I don't need the holes to be perfectly aligned, and I don't have any use for most of them. And I really really like the idea to make my own, for economical and practical reasons, and as a learning experience.

That said, I went ahead and bought the 150x450x12 mm Thorlabs breadboard. The biggest reasons for me where that

- it wasn't much more expensive than a raw 200x500x12mm piece of aluminum sheet.
- after buying a center punch etc, I'd actually pay more for the DIY one, even if I can use those things for other projects
- it looks pretty elegant with its nice finish, which is a bonus in this crowded household
- the relatively longer and narrower format more efficiently use the space I have than the 200x500 or 200x400 pre-cut aluminum sheets that's cheaply available on eBay from Germany.
- I fear that I don't really have the time to make a DIY solution that actually looks and works perfectly, so there's a big risk I'd sooner or later will feel need to do it all over again
- depreciation, the DIY one would presumably have almost zero resale value.
Victor,

That's what I did long ago, didn't have the time for a DIYer base, nor the tools, just had a hand drill and a couple cheap drill bits. In addition I had a pressing need for a specific chip image, so Thor was the choice. I also got the One Sided 95mm Precision extrusion which bolts to the base. This allows things like the various 95mm Precision clamps & fixtures to be mounted and easily moved with just loosing a couple bolts. I used a hand drill to drill some holes in the clamps for various plates and stuff I needed to mount, and later got a cheap drill press, taps and drills to make things a little easier.

Last year I decided to try an create a DIY Precision S&S system, and got a 600mm Precision 95mm bar and mounted to another Precison clamp for the Vertical setup. This can now slide along the horizontal One Side 95mm for positioning and clamped in place.

The Thor base is very flexible and with the 95mm Precision extrusion makes a very flexible core setup for our macro use. The Thor clamps for this 95mm system are extremely secure, much more so than anything I've used, but very easy to use and move.

Like you've indicated, if you don't have the tools or available machinist, Thor is certainly a good option...and in the end it's not that much more than expensive if you don't have a bargain scrap metal supply house.

As Chris indicated you don't need to create all the holes and taps, so I might give a steel plate a try since I like the idea of the magnetic fixtures. If I do this it will likely be created to allow the Thor One Sided 95mm Precision extrusion to bolt to, thus allowing all the features of this 95mm system. Of course Thor may already have a steel base, which I'll have to consider.

Anyway, having quality options is always good!

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

Smokedaddy
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Post by Smokedaddy »

viktor j nilsson wrote:That said, I went ahead and bought the 150x450x12 mm Thorlabs breadboard. The biggest reasons for me where that ...
Obviously a smart move if you don't have the basic tools to make your breadboard. I still prefer magnets. <g> Since I'm working on another project for someone and was at the supplier this morning, I asked what the price of a 1/2" x 6" x 18" 6061 Aluminum was. It was $48.00.

Naturally if you have a manual Mill this all becomes a little easier but still time consuming.

Cheers,
-JW:

PS: I should also mention that when you purchase aluminum plate or strap (steel etc.) that it's not completely 'flat' compared to a optical bread board and if you wanted it that way you'd have to face mill the surfaces.

Image

viktor j nilsson
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Post by viktor j nilsson »

Smokedaddy wrote: Since I'm working on another project for someone and was at the supplier this morning, I asked what the price of a 1/2" x 6" x 18" 6061 Aluminum was. It was $48.00.
Incidentally, that's exactly what I paid for the Thorlabs breadboard. Well, that, and almost as much in shipping.

There's one caveat, though. The breadboard is tapped with metric holes. M6 to be precise. For the most part I don't think it'll be much of an issue. I've converged on using exclusively M3 and M6 screws for all of my DIY projects.. But for some things like flash arms 1/4" UNC would be more convenient.

Looking at the dimensions, it seems like it should be possible to expand some of the M6 holes into 1/4" threaded holes. Or, to avoid messing with the breadboard, turn the 1/4" threads on the flash holder into M6 threads with a die. It seems like it should work. Anyone tried this?

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Post by Chris S. »

Peter M. Macdonald wrote:Like your idea of labeling the holes with their drill sizes.
Yes, it certainly makes the drilling process more mistake-resistant—and I can use all the help I can get. :D
mawyatt wrote:Wonder if this would work with inkjet and just using water?
I don’t know. If one searches things like “inkjet transfer” on Google, there are videos in which inkjet prints are used for transfers, in conjunction with water. One I looked at just now showed a process that involved using a waxy “paper” (actually, an Avery Label sheet with the labels and peripheral overlay elements removed, printing on just the waxy backing). But not having tried these approaches, I can’t speak for them.

I can say that using laser print and acetone for a print transfer to metal is easy, and a Google search will turn up useful tutorials. Acetone is, of course, a fairly benign chemical (one that our own bodies produce), so I’m not hesitant to work with it. I do treat acetone as flammable and volatile—so when working with it, I turn any nearby space heaters or furnaces off for a few minutes. Also, since I’ve seen cloths soaked with volatile chemicals spontaneously combust when wadded up and stuffed in a plastic bag, I dry my acetone-soaked paper towels individually, draped over something that provides open air on both sides.

Given a few minutes experimentation with acetone transfer of laser-printed CAD files to metal, I found it easy to learn how much acetone to use, and how much rubbing to perform. Even my worst efforts were usable for part fabrication, and my best efforts were like having the CAD file printed crisply and accurately onto the metal. I’ve considered making a tutorial, but think most members of this forum would learn the method equally well with the same few minutes of experimentation—it’s an easy process.

If you have an ink-jet printer, rather than a laser-printer, I’ll bet you can find or devise a transfer protocol pretty quickly. And then, of course, share it with the rest of us. :D

Cheers,

--Chris S.

Peter M. Macdonald
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Post by Peter M. Macdonald »

Mawyatt,

even if you have to use inkject output, just take the output to the local copy shop and get a photocopy of it. Normal photocopiers use the same process as laser printers.

Peter

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