Minimum size of optical breadboard

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viktor j nilsson
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Minimum size of optical breadboard

Post by viktor j nilsson »

At the title says, what do you consider as the minimum usable size for an optical breadboard?

Based on recent discussions, it seems most people here prefer fairly large and heavy breadboards (12" x 36" or so). I get that, especially for vertical rigs. But we live in a very small house, and I need to keep my rig compact and stowable.

I am thinking about getting a solid aluminum breadboard, 6" x 18" x 0.5" (15x45x0.5cm) that weighs 2.5kg. But I'm not sure if this is going to drive me nuts. However, since people seem happy with the Wemacro stand in horizontal position (17x42cm) I am thinking that at least size-wise it might work fairly well?



What I'm looking to be using it for:

- Horizontal only

- Finite objectives only, 160mm and 210mm TL on bellows. (+ sometimes scanner lenses or normal macro objevtives for low mag work)

- Camera+bellows will be sitting on the compact THK KR15 linear rail. I've added a 100mm idler rail as proposed by Ray here: http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... c&start=15

- Subject will be positioned on a stack of XYZ+R+tilt stages.

- Two flashes on magic arms.

- Magnifications from 1x to 40x, but above 20x I tend to use the microscope anyway. But I definitely want it to be stable enough for 20x.

Love to hear your thoughts!

enricosavazzi
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Post by enricosavazzi »

YMMV, but my opinion is that a breadboard is more versatile than a horizontal Wemacro stand, especially if you have already decided not to "go vertical".

A breadboard will allow you to attach all sorts of accessories along and at either side of the optical path, and still be able to move the setup around without losing alignment of the parts. The "at either side" part is why you should not skimp too much on the width of the breadboard. The length of the breadboard is even more important. I would suggest to calculate the maximum length of the setup, including everything existing or planned, then add another 20 to 30 cm.

A further advantage of a breadboard is that, if you discover you chose one that is too small or too narrow, you can expand it simply by placing it atop a larger marble/granite slab. New equipment can rest by gravity directly on the stone surface, and is actually easier to move around than when attached to the breadboard. The disadvantage is that this mobility is not suitable for equipment that should be kept rigidly aligned on a long-term time scale.

As for myself, I make no mystery of the fact that I prefer vertical setups. Among my reasons, the footprint of a reasonably largish vertical setup is smaller than that of a reasonably largish horizontal setup. Except for the camera/tube/objective/focusing mechanism, and some light sources attached to the main column or two extra side columns (usually including an HD/computer monitor attached to one of the side columns), all the rest of my equipment is laid on the base of the stand or around it.

Luckily I still have enough space to be able to afford a permanent placement of the stand (currently a Zeiss measuring scope stand) on a solid table I built from 45 x 45 mm aluminium profile. I just cover it with rayon sail cloth when not in use.

In your case, if your setup cannot be left permanently exposed, you might consider building a smallish work table on casters that can roll into and out of an Ikea-type storage cabinet. You will have to modify the cabinet by somehow removing its bottom without making the cabinet collapse, so that the table will smoothly roll in and out. The space in the cabinet under the tabletop and above the height of the equipment can be handy for storage, so don't let it go to waste. A shelf under the tabletop can also be useful for power supplies etc. Also, I always attach an electrical outlet strip with a dozen outlets under the tabletop or to one leg of the table.
--ES

Chris S.
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Post by Chris S. »

Viktor,

It seems to me that minimum size of your platform is determined by two things: How much room you need for the things you are going to mount on it, and how much mass you’ll need to dampen vibrations. As to how much size, I think you can make a good initial guess by arranging your equipment and seeing how much room it requires. (I myself prefer to mount my lights on another, unattached, piece of metal that goes around the macro rig without touching it. But this may not fit your lifestyle very well. As to mass—and oversimplifying somewhat—the greater the mass of a rig with little internal wobble, the more resistant it will be to high-frequency vibration in your shooting environment. (Low-frequency vibration, in such a situation, can be reduced with shock absorbers such as Sorbothane elastomer feet.)

This is all to say that if you’re optimizing around small size, portability, and light weight, you’ll likely benefit from some trial and error for your equipment and shooting environment. Since optical breadboards are expensive, this sort of trial and error might be costly. However, simple pieces of aluminum stock are not expensive. And with a drill, drill bit, and tap, you can place a threaded hole in aluminum in five minutes or less. This is very easy, and there are good YouTube videos that demonstrate the process. If you find that your first aluminum base is too small, either discard it and make a bigger one, or get a larger piece or aluminum stock, and bolt it below the original base.

I’ve never understood the strong interest in optical breadboards, for our macro work. I happen to prefer steel bases, which are also easy to drill and tap, plus allow devices to be attached magnetically. But if I were using aluminum, I’d use cheap aluminum stock, drill/tap my own holes, and not look back. If this results in a base of the wrong size/mass, replace or augment it with little loss.

The one downsize of this approach, against a commercial breadboard, is that it is not already populated with a plethora of holes aligned in a precise grid. But for our work, I’d question whether grid precision has much value. If you need another hole, just measure, drill, tap, and move on.

Good luck! Please show us what you come up with,

I see that Enrico has posted while I was writing. There is a lot of wisdom in his post, even if his vision and mine, in our initial responses to your particular case, differ.

--Chris S.

Deanimator
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Post by Deanimator »

As noted, a sturdy table on casters can be every useful. I built rather a large one using Kee Klamp type hardware from Lowe's (a US home/hardware store). I've been extremely happy with it since I built it last year. It's got ample room for vertical or horizontal rigs, plus lighting and other equipment. It's got a bottom shelf for storage. If I felt like it, I could hang drawers underneath it. You could build one of these in pretty much any dimensions which suit you. Plus if your requirements change, you can easily break it down and reconfigure it.

As far as breadboards go, I'm leaning in that direction. Unfortunately, I'm currently at an impasse regarding sourcing. Since I need to be able to do both vertical and horizontal, and will mostly be photographing subjects bigger than insects, I need a relatively long and wide board that'll hold my lab jack or other subject platform. Something on the order of 18"x24". Unlike granite surface plates, breadboards seem totally unavailable locally. I don't want to get slaughtered on shipping.

Regarding steel plates, if you have the requisite machining skill, they can work out well. Unfortunately, I don't. I only have a small Harbor Freight drill press, and I have absolutely no doubt that my trying to drill and tap even a minimally consistently spaced array of holes with a hand drill would be a total disaster. And that's before the tapping. I suspect that getting even a cheap plate drilled and tapped around here would probably run more than a bread board AND the shipping. Of course were it affordable, the table I built would barely blink at the weight of the surface plate and a steel plate.

Chris S.
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Post by Chris S. »

Deanimator wrote:Regarding steel plates, if you have the requisite machining skill, they can work out well. Unfortunately, I don't. I only have a small Harbor Freight drill press, and I have absolutely no doubt that my trying to drill and tap even a minimally consistently spaced array of holes with a hand drill would be a total disaster. And that's before the tapping.
Deanimator, may I respectfully suggest that drilling and tapping steel is much easier than it seems? I'm not a machinist, either, but have found that drilling and tapping steel is child's play. I find it easy even by hand; with your Harbor Freight drill press, it should be even easier.

One does need a drill bit made for drilling steel--try an inexpensive cobalt bit, available at your local hardware store. Be sure to lubricate the spot where you are drilling; I use metal drilling lube from the hardware store, but have watched videos where a wide variety of lubricants are used, including personal lubricants from the drugstore--the point is just to keep the metal from heating up. I've watched a master fabricator drill through steel, by hand, with the only lube being a drop of motor oil.

The one thing I learned with some difficulty, is that when drilling into steel, press the drill somewhat harder than you would for wood or aluminum. As in drilling wood, cutting a tree with a chain saw, or milling metal, you want to see cut shards flying away--not specs of dust. If you are cutting shards, things are going well; if you are shedding dust, you are just grinding (very slow). It took me maybe a dozen holes drilled into a steel trailer to apprehend this difference; before this insight, these holes were very hard and time-consuming to drill; but after this insight, my feeling was, "Drilling holes in steel is fun and fast--how many more do I get to do?"

--Chris S.

Deanimator
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Post by Deanimator »

Chris S. wrote:Deanimator, may I respectfully suggest that drilling and tapping steel is much easier than it seems? I'm not a machinist, either, but have found that drilling and tapping steel is child's play. I find it easy even by hand; with your Harbor Freight drill press, it should be even easier.
I meant [and neglected] to mention that it's a table top drill press. I'm not even sure it has the reach.

You're probably right, but I'm taxing my abilities (especially in layout) to the limit with wood working.

As the saying goes, a man's got to know his limitations, and I think I'm approaching mine. I can build a PC in my sleep, where others wouldn't even dream of it. The truth is, both of us probably know ourselves.

I've actually done some preparation for metal drilling and have cutting oil. I've also got a cheap Harbor Freight tap and die set. Some time after I clean up the mess in my living room, I may try to get my hands on some scrap and see just how big of a mess I create.

enricosavazzi
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Post by enricosavazzi »

About drilling and tapping holes in metal, with a stand-mounted drill it is not too difficult. Hand tapping is probably the easiest part, especially in thick material that is not too hard (even if you start a little skewed, the tap will right up while entering deeper into the hole). Important things to remember is unscrew and clean the tap every time friction becomes too high, and use plenty of lubricant.

The most difficult parts for me are marking the exact spot to drill (a kit with a fixture for a plastic enlarger lens that you swap with a steel punch does help) and starting the hole in the exact marked punch spot. Starting the hole with a smaller diameter bit helps.
--ES

Deanimator
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Post by Deanimator »

enricosavazzi wrote:The most difficult parts for me are marking the exact spot to drill (a kit with a fixture for a plastic enlarger lens that you swap with a steel punch does help) and starting the hole in the exact marked punch spot. Starting the hole with a smaller diameter bit helps.
This has always been a nightmare for me. I just never seem to be able to do accurate layout.

viktor j nilsson
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Post by viktor j nilsson »

Very good discussion, thanks to all input so far.

Chris S, you have definitely made me feel less intimidated by steel, but because steel sheets also seem quite expensive, I don't think I prefer it over the cheaper DIY aluminum solution or a commercial breadboard. Worth to know if I stumble across a cheap piece of steel, though. I've had good luck drilling and tapping aluminum before, but I agree that getting the spacing just right is difficult. I'd say my aim is +-1 or 2 mm at best even when I get to borrow a drill press.

I'm definitely going to move around my equipment a bit more to figure out what kind of space I need. I currently have it temporarily mounted on top of some laminated chipboards (two bolted together) that are about 30x45x3cm, which works OK. Based on this setup, I believe that the 150*450mm breadboard size might work in terms of space (at least length-wise), but I was curious if people had strong opinions on the amount of mass needed for a stable aluminum base.

Forgot to mention that I live in a very solidly built conrete house in very quiet small village so I deal with almost zero external vibrations. The weak spot is probably that the table where my workplace is located is wall-mounted to a 50cm thick concrete wall. The wall mount could probably pick up some vibrations. I have some extra legs that I can use to support it from beneath, which I think will make it stable enough if need be. However, I haven't really gotten my setup operational in our new house yet, so I can't say for sure how it works in practice.

Deanimator
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Post by Deanimator »

viktor j nilsson wrote:Forgot to mention that I live in a very solidly built conrete house in very quiet small village so I deal with almost zero external vibrations.
You're lucky. I live in a poorly constructed apartment. My studio is in a living room with floors so unstable that when I was using a tripod and a separate table for the subject, you could literally see movement between the camera and subject, just from shifting from one foot to the other. To top it off, I live across the street from a major interstate highway.

My current rig is a thick wooden cutting board on sorbothane feet. The heavy pipe table helps to eliminate some of the vibrations.

I eventually want to replace the cutting board with an aluminum bread board mounted on top of a granite surface plate.

ChrisR
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Post by ChrisR »

The key to accurate drilling, I find, is to use at least two, better three, center punches.
Having scratched two lines on the surface which cross at the correct point, use a VERY SHARP punch first, very carefully. The crater needs to be big enough to take the next punch, and so on, but they can be shallower angles.
"Engineer's blue" or similar, is useful.

It's surprising how small that initial crater needs to be, but the final punch crater needs to be larger diameter than the straight part on the drill bit - so start with a small one! 1/16th" or 1.5mm is good but buy a few because they're impossible to sharpen.

You do need accurately ground cones on your punches, or you'll make an elliptical or off-center dent.
Your sharpest/narrow angle punch will of course go blunt fastest so have a spare.
Chris R

Smokedaddy
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Post by Smokedaddy »

Smokedaddy, great post! :D

You’ve shown useful machining tools for placing holes precisely. Some of these tools I use myself. But a couple of your recommendations I’m unaware of, and am having trouble finding them. Would you mind sharing additional details that will enable us to purchase these or work-alikes?

While I don’t think absolute precision is very important in making a macro base-plate, I do find precision important in making things like motor mounts, where we benefit from having the motor and lead screw as perfectly aligned as possible.
Smokedaddy wrote:Below is an optical center punch;
Image:
In order to purchase a similar optical center punch, would you consider this item acceptable, or can you suggest a better alternative? (Reviews seem to prefer a version by “On Mark,” which appears to exist no more, or if it does exist, it is perhaps in a debauched form.)

https://www.amazon.com/Flexbar-Optical- ... merReviews

For the picture below, could you please provide a reference to buy this exact item? I myself use Anytime Tools 5 Lathe Mill CENTER DRILL COUNTERSINK Bit Tooling SET, but would be very happy to add, to my workflow, a simple, pointy, bit such as you display--but I can't find such a thing. Since you have one, can you tell me how to purchase it?
Smokedaddy wrote:Below is a center finder;
Image

Thanks much,

--Chris S.

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

Chris, James,

I've been a little shy of tackling steel as well. Since my mechanical skills and tools ($70 Harbor Freight DP) are limited, I've not ventured much beyond the pre-drilled and tapped Thor Labs aluminum base, precision rails & clamps and the WeMacro stand with some simple modifications.

I like the idea of using magnetic clamps, so I may give steel a try in the near future.

James, you sure have an impressive set of tools and machines...the envy of all us DIYers :D

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

Smokedaddy
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Post by Smokedaddy »

mawyatt wrote:Chris, James,

I've been a little shy of tackling steel as well. Since my mechanical skills and tools ($70 Harbor Freight DP) are limited, I've not ventured much beyond the pre-drilled and tapped Thor Labs aluminum base, precision rails & clamps and the WeMacro stand with some simple modifications.

I like the idea of using magnetic clamps, so I may give steel a try in the near future.
Best,
BTW I prefer using magnetic clamps. It's no more difficult tapping steel than anything else. You just have to be careful, don't get in a hurry and don't get to aggressive. I've tapped thousands of holes in steel. The biggest problem making a BB is there are so 'many' holes to drill and tap that you usually get in a hurry after you've done a few. It all boils down to time and how much money you want to spend or save. You can probably save yourself a couple hundred dollars making a 1/2" x 12" x 24" yourself compared to buying one (if you don't include shipping cost). Once you make a breadboard exactly like one of the Thorlabs aluminum BB (or if you use steel) and see how much time it takes, you'll probably buy one next time. <g> Since I'm retired I have plenty of time to screw around with stuff like this. The advantage of a BB over using a magnetic base would be the holes are precisely aligned. As I said above, I'd rather use magnets.

-JW:

Image

Chris S.
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Post by Chris S. »

viktor j nilsson wrote:Chris S, you have definitely made me feel less intimidated by steel, but because steel sheets also seem quite expensive, I don't think I prefer it over the cheaper DIY aluminum solution or a commercial breadboard. Worth to know if I stumble across a cheap piece of steel, though.
Viktor, I have a local welder/fabricator (Don Wilson) who does wonderful work for me at modest prices. He also gives me helpful advice and support for projects I do myself. One way he helps me keep costs down is by offering metal pieces from his scrap box. Since he typically sells these scraps to a recycler, he lets me reimburse him at the rates by weight that the recycler would pay him for any pieces I use. This is a significant kindness, because these rates are much cheaper than retail. Do you have any welding or fabricating shops in your area? If so, perhaps they would do this for you?
Smokedaddy wrote:. . . for my 2 cents, you'll be an expert at drilling and taping holes after you make your first breadboard. :)
Smokedaddy also wrote:BTW I prefer using magnetic clamps.

(snip)

The biggest problem making a BB is there are so 'many' holes to drill and tap that you usually get in a hurry after you've done a few. It all boils down to time and how much money you want to spend or save. You can probably save yourself a couple hundred dollars making a 1/2" x 12" x 24" yourself compared to buying one (if you don't include shipping cost). Once you make a breadboard exactly like one of the Thorlabs aluminum BB (or if you use steel) and see how much time it takes, you'll probably buy one next time.

(snip)

The advantage of a BB over using a magnetic base would be the holes are precisely aligned. As I said above, I'd rather use magnets.
I agree with Smokedaddy--if you truly need an optical breadboard, it makes sense to simply purchase an optical breadboard, unless you prefer to use the exercise of making your own breadboard as an opportunity to improve your machining skills.

But I question the idea that most photomacrographers will benefit from an optical breadboard. I don't have an optical breadboard, and routinely work up to 100x. If I did have an optical breadboard, I can't imagine how it would help me. An optical breadboard provides a bunch of threaded holes in a precisely aligned grid. What substantial problem does this solve for us?

My steel base has drilled/threaded holes where I need them; If I require an additional threaded hole, I simply make it (I very rarely have this need). I can envision making a similar setup with a few extra threaded holes placed for potential future contingencies. But such holes, in my experience, do not need to be placed with precision.

So I'm suggesting that most macro rig makers avoid optical breadboards, choose a metal base--either steel or aluminum--and learn to add threaded holes to this base on an as-needed basis.

Cheers,

--Chris S.

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