Which camera bodies have fully electronic shutter?

[ChrisR]

Do some variants at least of Olympus Pen also belong on the (original) list?

[rolsen]

Thanks for the replys, keep 'em models coming if you remember more. Seems that no Canon has one, is it really true?

[lothman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCNuXjNCiow

this shows a sony A7riii on electronic shutter at pixelshift triggering an external flash.

[Lou Jost]

Yes, PEN F has fully electronic shutter, plus pixel-shifting, both usable with flash. That's very unusual.

Pentax K-1 full frame camera has fully electronic shutter but after the exposure, the shutter closes and then re-opens after processing the file.

[mawyatt]

Yes, PEN F has fully electronic shutter, plus pixel-shifting, both usable with flash. That's very unusual.

Pentax K-1 full frame camera has fully electronic shutter but after the exposure, the shutter closes and then re-opens after processing the file.

Lou,

This is different than the Nikon Silent Mode in the D850 where the mechanical shutter is not engaged, so absolutely no camera internal movements.

Best,

[Lou Jost]

Yes, the Pentax K-1 has a unique system not like anything else, and lacking any logic. But all mechanical activity takes place after the exposure.

The PEN F electronic shutter is like the D850, but unlike the D850 the flash works in this mode.

[Adalbert]

Hello Rane,

Thanks for the replys, keep 'em models coming if you remember more. Seems that no Canon has one, is it really true?

I use CANON M3 and 6D (both with the electronic first shutter).
In my setup the flashes are triggered by the rail between the curtains.
BR, ADi

[RDolz]

I have the fujifilm x pro2 camera. It has an option for electronic shutter mode only. the problem is that if using a flash it can't be set to electronic shutter mode.

In theory you can use a flash if you choose a slow shutter time and two external relays, one to shoot the camera and another that later triggers the flash.

For this we must take into account the general rolling shutter process in cameras with CMOS sensor, which we normally use.

The sensor does not expose all its surface simultaneously, in fact if we put an exposure time of 1/1000, the exposure begins the first row, the second row begins its exposure a time later. This time is the line time. The last row begins its exposure a later time that is equal to: line time x number of rows, this is what is called readout time.

The readout time, can be greater than 1/15 of a second, that is, in this case and for a shutter of 1/1000, the last row would begin its exposure long after the first row had finished its own, practically 1/15 after (exactly (1/15) - (1/1000)).

Therefore, you have to take into account the total readout time of your camera's sensor. The readout time of the Fuji I do not know it with precision, but I understand that it is between 1/15 and 1/30 (depending on the models, the X-Pro2 I have read is 1/30). In other words, the last word of the sensor starts to be exposed approximately between 1/30 and 1/15 of a second after the first one starts.

This means that if for example the readout of the sensor is 1/15 and we put the exposure time of the ES in a second, the last row starts to be exposed when the first line has already received 1/15 of a second receiving photons. At this moment, the first row still has 14/15 of a second to complete its exposure time.

If after the first 1/15 of a second the flash is triggered, both the first and the last line receive the light of the flash, and the whole sensor will be exposed by the flash.

Here we have a scheme for rolling-shutter readout: Each row has the same exposure length, but starts and stops at different moments in time. In green I have marked when the flash must be triggered.



A procedure using two relays could be:

- Put the ES with an exposure time greater than 1/15 sec, for example 1/2 s:
- The first relay triggers the camera
- 1/15 of a second later, the other relay triggers the flash.

This should work, ... as a precaution, we should use with low powers of flash, ... because although I have no record, I do not know the problems of possible damage to the sensor mentioned by Mike.

best

[Adalbert]

Hello Ramón,

In theory you can use a flash if you choose a slow shutter time and two external relays, one to shoot the camera and another that later triggers the flash.

Not only in the theory; the flashes in my setup have been triggered in this way for years :-)
But because of the long shutter time (between 1s and 1/2s) the photographs have to be taken in the darkness (as on the second curtain).
BR, ADi

[RDolz]

ADi, perfect !!

I did not know how to explain it without anyone feeling upset, ...

What camera do you use, ... in "theory" it should be feasible to use faster exposure speeds.

Only the total readout time + margin 1 + flash time + margin2.

Margin is a prudential time between the readout and the trigger of the flash, or between the end of the flash and the end of exposure of the first row.
Thus, both margins can be thousands, and the flash time at maximum powers I think is also of the order of one thousandth of a second (I have read that it is between 1/750 and 1/2500 according to the manufacturer), ...

Therefore for a readout of 1/15, flash of 1/750, margins of 2 milliseconds, we would have:

1/15 + margin1 + flash + margin2 =

1/15 + 2/1000 + 1/750 + 2/1000 = 0.072 s equivalent to 1/13.9 of second ...

For a flash of 1/2500, it is practically the same

This could allow photography with a soft ambient light, if the flash power is sufficient.

Best regards.

[Adalbert]

Helo Ramón,

What camera do you use, ... in "theory" it should be feasible to use faster exposure speeds.

This time only in the theory :-)

Let’s take CANON EOS M3
Firstly the shutter has to be opened completely (for flashes). So the time has to be longer than 1/200 (sync).
Secondly the shutter is opened with a small delay.
The EOS M3 cannot be triggered remotely via cable (it doesn’t have any connector) but only via IR.
So, it means that the mentioned delay can differ between 20ms and 100ms.

BR, ADi

[RDolz]

Aaah!, ... I did not understand it, because in my camera, Fuji X-T1 , when it is in ES mode it never moves the mechanical shutter ... and we just have to Consider the readout time.

Best

[Lou Jost]

The PEN F synchronizes its flash with the electronic shutter at 1/20 s or slower.

[mjkzz]

ADi, perfect !!

I did not know how to explain it without anyone feeling upset, ...

What camera do you use, ... in "theory" it should be feasible to use faster exposure speeds.

Only the total readout time + margin 1 + flash time + margin2.

Margin is a prudential time between the readout and the trigger of the flash, or between the end of the flash and the end of exposure of the first row.
Thus, both margins can be thousands, and the flash time at maximum powers I think is also of the order of one thousandth of a second (I have read that it is between 1/750 and 1/2500 according to the manufacturer), ...

Therefore for a readout of 1/15, flash of 1/750, margins of 2 milliseconds, we would have:

1/15 + margin1 + flash + margin2 =

1/15 + 2/1000 + 1/750 + 2/1000 = 0.072 s equivalent to 1/13.9 of second ...

For a flash of 1/2500, it is practically the same

This could allow photography with a soft ambient light, if the flash power is sufficient.

Best regards.

I think there is something missing in your formula -- shutter lag and for some (most) cameras (I have at least). this shutter lag is variable, ie, it is NOT constant from shots to shots. For Nikon cameras, this behavior is even more pronounced.

For my Sony A7III, in ES mode, it is, too, variable, but at lesser degree. So I always set delay to 1/2s with shutter speend at 1/2s, I have never missed a single shot yet (after 1000s of shots).

[rolsen]

Hello Rane,
I use CANON M3 and 6D (both with the electronic first shutter).
In my setup the flashes are triggered by the rail between the curtains.
BR, ADi

Hi ADi,

I have three DSLRs, 7Dmk2, 80D and 6Dmk2. I mainly shoot my macros with 80D, because it has the biggest pixel density and the best DR in Canon APS-C bodies. I think they all have this EFCS thingy, but not the fully electronic shutter. Maybe the easiest route is just to get a Sony 6300/6500 and some adapters and cables. But, I'm not in a hurry, I can always wait and see what Canon does with the 7Dmk3, will it be old technic or mirrorless. I shoot birds too, that's why I need one fast body. There are rumors about the Sony 7000 as a 7Dmk2 killer, but rumors come rumors go.