X1D Mediumformat and Macro

Have questions about the equipment used for macro- or micro- photography? Post those questions in this forum.

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gmfotografie
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X1D Mediumformat and Macro

Post by gmfotografie »

Hello,

i want to capture some high res. 10x macros with my X1D (and a lot of Stacking! )
Yes, I know the problems with the electronic shutter not able using a flash.
I have also continuous Lighting in my Studio.

Would be great if someone can give me equipment tipps for using the X1D:
Which Adapter and which Lens can you recommend for such a mediumformat system?

goal - see here:
https://www.designboom.com/design/alpa- ... 7-20-2017/

best michael

ChrisR
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Post by ChrisR »

Welcome to the forum!
To save others looking it up, 55mm field diameter, 5.3mm pixels.
Like a 31MP FX sensor but bigger.

In terms of microscope objectives, you're looking for coverage 55/10 = 5.5mm field width.
That's outside their design spec, but some do well.
You would need a good "tube" lens too. Here's a relevant post: http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... p?p=207875

In fact, do a forum search, without any of the quotation marks, for "10x" on user "nathanm", select "posts", and "All available".
Most of the results will be relevant.
Order your Mitutoyo 7.5x and 20x now...

In terms of adapters, it depends whether you use a native lens, or a lot of tubes/bellows.

Typo edited
Last edited by ChrisR on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
Chris R

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Post by rjlittlefield »

50 megapixel, 55 mm diagonal sensor.

Mitutoyo 7.5X on a nominal 267 mm tube lens should give 10X with good corners, NA 0.21 on the subject, effective f/24 at the sensor.

See http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 243#208243 and the surrounding thread, especially the previous page.

That sounds like a match made in heaven. I'm jealous!

--Rik

johan
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Post by johan »

Me too!
My extreme-macro.co.uk site, a learning site. Your comments and input there would be gratefully appreciated.

gmfotografie
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Post by gmfotografie »

THX for your helpful answers - i will check them in detail soon.

All the best michael

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Post by Beatsy »

I like the look of that "0.1 micron" rail mentioned in the link. Any ideas what brand?

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

Beatsy wrote:I like the look of that "0.1 micron" rail mentioned in the link. Any ideas what brand?
I think it's a Parker Motion, linear motor type.

Edited to add: Hmm, I take that back. It has a stepper damper. Gotta look into that further.

Further edit...The motor and rail axis are offset, so it is probably a stepper with a step-down mechanism to reduce the step size. Still searching...

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Post by ray_parkhurst »

You've probably already seen this, but there is a tiny bit more info here:

http://www.alpa.ch/en/site/alpa-project ... s-stacking

and here:

http://www.alpa.ch/en/site/when-even-in ... -with-alpa

They are offering this stepper rail as part of their "standard" stacking kit, with Alpa-developed proprietary software.

Beatsy
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Post by Beatsy »

ray_parkhurst wrote:You've probably already seen this, but there is a tiny bit more info here:

http://www.alpa.ch/en/site/alpa-project ... s-stacking

and here:

http://www.alpa.ch/en/site/when-even-in ... -with-alpa

They are offering this stepper rail as part of their "standard" stacking kit, with Alpa-developed proprietary software.
Thanks for the info Ray, and your efforts in looking it up. Yes, I'd seen the stuff at those links. Nice pics etc, but nothing over and above the output PMN contributors regularly produce. Perhaps not so many make barn-sized-print ready images, but the skills are there - and often with less costly kit.

The Alpa stuff looks very nice, and priced commensurate with medium format gear where large sensor coverage is required. But. Can that Rodenstock-based 105mm f/5.6 macro Switar on medium format really "outperform" a good objective (or even a good scanner lens) on a 40-50 megapixel FF sensor? I'm not so sure about that. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of digital medium format systems, but feel MF is developing a slight air of emperors new clothes these days - FF sensors are catching up with more mpix, low noise, greater dynamic range and FF lenses to make full use of them.

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Post by ray_parkhurst »

Beatsy wrote:
ray_parkhurst wrote:You've probably already seen this, but there is a tiny bit more info here:

http://www.alpa.ch/en/site/alpa-project ... s-stacking

and here:

http://www.alpa.ch/en/site/when-even-in ... -with-alpa

They are offering this stepper rail as part of their "standard" stacking kit, with Alpa-developed proprietary software.
Thanks for the info Ray, and your efforts in looking it up. Yes, I'd seen the stuff at those links. Nice pics etc, but nothing over and above the output PMN contributors regularly produce. Perhaps not so many make barn-sized-print ready images, but the skills are there - and often with less costly kit.

The Alpa stuff looks very nice, and priced commensurate with medium format gear where large sensor coverage is required. But. Can that Rodenstock-based 105mm f/5.6 macro Switar on medium format really "outperform" a good objective (or even a good scanner lens) on a 40-50 megapixel FF sensor? I'm not so sure about that. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of digital medium format systems, but feel MF is developing a slight air of emperors new clothes these days - FF sensors are catching up with more mpix, low noise, greater dynamic range and FF lenses to make full use of them.
The kit shown in my first link shows the Linos/Rodenstock Inspecx.L lens, maybe same or similar to the one I have. It performs very well, and likely the floating element version well over wide range. It's a tough range these lenses cover. I wonder if the Macro-Switar is the same lens, just with less "industrial" packaging...

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Post by Beatsy »

ray_parkhurst wrote: The kit shown in my first link shows the Linos/Rodenstock Inspecx.L lens, maybe same or similar to the one I have. It performs very well, and likely the floating element version well over wide range. It's a tough range these lenses cover. I wonder if the Macro-Switar is the same lens, just with less "industrial" packaging...
I forgot about the range it covers (<1x to 4x with a constant 85mm image circle on sensor). That is rather impressive. Very long working distances too.

From reading some Alpa blurb earlier, I believe it is "repackaged" as you say. I found a price too, but can't find it again (I can only find pages that need an account to see prices now). I think it was north of £4k though.

gmfotografie
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Post by gmfotografie »

So for the X1D you recommend a

7.5X Mitutoyo Plan Apo Infinity Corrected Long WD Objective

A RMS ring for connecting both to a single tube with about 276mm length.
finally the camera mount adapter

For a start - correct?

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Post by Pau »

gmfotografie wrote:A RMS ring for connecting both to a single tube with about 276mm length.
finally the camera mount adapter

For a start - correct?
Nope, the Mitutoyo is an infinite corrected objective, it needs a tube lens, a lens focussed to infinite with the adequate focal length to project the infinite image onto the sensor
rjlittlefield wrote:50 megapixel, 55 mm diagonal sensor.

Mitutoyo 7.5X on a nominal 267 mm tube lens should give 10X with good corners, NA 0.21 on the subject, effective f/24 at the sensor.

See http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 243#208243 and the surrounding thread, especially the previous page...
Here Rik refers to a lens of 267mm focal to match the objective image circle with your sensor size.
Of course you also need the proper adapters, no need to be RMS, better search the original Mitutoyo thread to the camera lens filter mount.

For the relevant background take a look at our FAQ: http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=12147
Pau

gmfotografie
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Post by gmfotografie »

Thank you Pau!

Okay some things are clear.

A Question according the Tube Lens - 267mm:

Where to get such lens with this special focal length or can i use also a 250mm but with not exact 10x magnification ?

I also have a old Hasselblad 150mm and a 250mm V Bajonette - I can use this also as a tube lens on the X1D System - with the Adapter XCD to V Lenses ?!

(Actually i think 5x will fit my needs more)


On this picture:

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=33608
what is the long "black box" after the Phase Digipack ?

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Post by ChrisR »

Starting again:
An infinite objective is designed to work with a particular FL tube lens, generally 200mm. So a "10x" objective will be 20mm FL.

It will be designed to work in a microscope where the image diameter (on sensor) is let's say 25mm (if you're lucky).

The objective will therefore be designed to have field coverage (subject side) of about 2.5mm. You should expect the objective's performance to deteriorate outside that 2.5mm (25mm on sensor) circle. It does, though we have found that eg Mitutoyo objectives do very well up to around 5mm. (Mitutoyo 7.5x and 20x, about the best.)
Bear in mind that Tube lenses are also only designed for that same 25mm circle, sensor side. Again, we have found that some will do much better, though you do find the image degrades if you look for that.

You cannot swap lenses with simply the same FL and expect them to work without it hurting somewhere you care about, or indeed work at all.

There's no precise calculation for the sensor coverage you will actually get. Camera lenses designed for a particular sensor size usually vignette :(. Often, metalwork gets in the way. Eyeball it, read up and check where the entrance pupil is, and try it and see, is the way to go.
I started saying that the image field you need (subject side) is 5.5mm because that's your sensor's 55mm ÷ Magnification at 10x which you specified.

Not many objectives will give you 5.5mm, the IQ rolls off. Remember they're designed for half that.

If you know a particular objective gives some number you find acceptable, say 4mm mm on subject, then it's up to you what you do with it in terms of magnification.
If you use a 100mm TL, you would get 5x magnification (Tubelength FL / Objective FL). You would expect it to cover half the image circle sensor side - you shrunk it. That's actually 12.5mm by design, (4mm x 5 = )20mm according to you, but you need 55mm.

I believe the 247mm TL came from taking a known objective which covers a particular sensor size then, basically enlarging the image by using a longer FL tube lens. When you increase M that way, the image diameter on the sensor follows.
If you pick a shorter TL for less M, you WILL get proportionately less coverage.

That is "if everything else is equal". It's not, in that Tube lenses' performance will matter. The "official" tube lenses are designed to cover other than microscope, or CCTV etc, uses.

For 5x, you could use the old-fashioned camera, rather than microscope, method with a regular, finite lens.
:idea: No tube lens.
It worked pretty well for 5"x4" film - using something like a Macro-Nikkor, though you'll have a tough time finding one. Easier to find is a Canon MP35, 35mm f/2.8 macro lens. Used at f/4 that's an Effective Aperture f/24, which is fair. Maybe $250, and less hassle that finding tube lenses/spacers/difficult adapters, perhaps.
That's an RMS thread (though they came with Canon FD adapter) so you'd go to M42 probably, then on to your tubes so it winds up at around 6 x 35 = 210mm from your sensor.
It covers FX at much lower M, so it should cover your sensor easily.
It will be much easier to adjust M than using an infinite setup. You'd get a bit more resolution with fancier optics, but not much.

For higher M, then go infinite as first described.
Chris R

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