Wall-mounted vertical rig

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Beatsy
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Wall-mounted vertical rig

Post by Beatsy »

I'm toying with the idea of making a vertical rig to complement my horizontal one. I expect it will be used far less often and mainly for high magnification work with tiny subjects that are difficult or tedious to mount for horizontal stacking.

Space is a real problem. I much prefer to have my gear set up and ready to use and just cover it when not in use. This is not negotiable! With a stereo microscope, Zeiss ICM 405, and a Labophot-based "diatom arranging station" (with micro-manipulators) all set up, as well as my horizontal macro rig, computer desk and a small desk area for prep and general use, I've run out of free desk/bench space. There is no room for another desk - no matter how compact and I don't want to use/adapt any of the scopes for macro use either - they will remain dedicated to microscopy.

So I'm thinking of mounting the vertical rig on the wall next to my horizontal one with a small, sturdy shelf underneath, and share the lighting equipment, computer connections and monitors already nearby.

It seems an ideal solution to me, but I don't recall seeing anyone else having a set up like this. This may mean I've missed some obvious show-stopping disadvantage (like isolation from vibration perhaps). Any thoughts before I start kitting up for it? Thanks.

enricosavazzi
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Post by enricosavazzi »

Vertical setups attached to a wall were used in the past. Leitz for example had long rails, compatible with the Aristophot system, meant to be bolted to a wall.

A rail attached to a wall is indeed subjected to the same type of vibrations of a stand resting directly on a floor. Lightly built inner walls (plasterboard on wood or lightweight metal studs for example) may be even more prone to vibrations than a floor.

No doubt it is possible to use vibration damping between wall and a wall-attached rail, but it is much easier to use vibration-damping systems that rely on gravity to keep the system components pressed together.

A vertical system built as a stand is much more versatile than one bolted to a wall. I, and quite a few other forum members, use a modified measuring microscope stand for this type of vertical setup. It is not especially space-saving (except compared to a horizontal rail), and in addition it is so heavy that it is best left permanently on a table. In my case, I built a custom table with 45x45 and 90x45 mm aluminium profiles with a tabletop about 60x60 cm wide at a suitable height to work while standing. A small dedicated table works much better for me than part of a large desk where the stand competes for space with microscopes, computers and a growing pile of junk.

Total weight of my table and equipment is somewhere between 50 and 100 Kg, but I can still slide the table a little on its plastic feet without marring a wood floor. Heavy-duty casters would of course be better in this respect, but you must choose a type with tires strong enough not to flatten if left in the same place for months.

I have not fully decided which damping system to use, but 5 cm viscoelastic (sorbothane, sorbogel etc.) half-spheres of the type used for hi-fi turntables squeeze and break within days under the weight (even 12 of them are not strong enough for my stand). On the other hand, fine-grained closed-pore rubber mats of the type used in gyms and car workshops do carry the weight well, but are not equally effective as dampers. This is a lightweight material, different from the solid-rubber mats used under heavy machinery and electron microscopes.

So far I got reasonably good results with a 40x40 cm wide sandwich platform consisting of layers, from bottom up: 3mm aluminium plate, 25 mm rubber mat, and 40 mm granite slab between tabletop and stand. The aluminium plate is there to prevent the rubber from pressure-glueing itself to the tabletop with time. The granite slab increases mass and inertia, and distributes weight without flexing. For increased damping, it *might* help to cut holes or channels in the rubber mat so that only about 50% of the mat surface touches the granite slab, but anything that increases pressure on the rubber is likely to decrease its durability and encourage flattening.

It does not help that in my stand most of the weight is concentrated at one edge (under the column).

Automotive air springs built into the tabletop might be the next thing to try if rubber mats don't work well enough for me. I did mess up with bicycle and pram tires as dampers years ago, but got nowhere with them (uneven compressing, air leaks and fatigue of the rubber were just some of the problems).
--ES

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

I agree, the vibrations would be terrible.

How about a front-surface mirror at a 45 degree angle in front of your horizontal set-up? The Dimage scanner has one; you could use that. This would only work if the objective had a fair bit of working distance, though.

You could use a half-silvered mirror instead of a fully reflective one, and then you could illuminate your subject through it, eliminating lighting problems as a bonus to having an easily-convertible horizontal-to-vertical set-up.

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

Beats,

The Thor Labs 95mm optical construction rails XT95B are designed for high stability & precision optical lab setups.

https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9. ... oup_id=244

You can build a small vertical stand with the XT95B vertical bar sitting on a small optical table or thick aluminum base. Thor has base plates XT95P3 for attachment, or One-Sided rail XT95SP that the Drop-On Rail Carriage XT95P11 can mount to and allow sliding along the One-Sided rail. For equipment mounting the mentioned Drop-On Carriage or XT95P12 Rail Plate. Thor has Sorbathiane feet for the optical base also.

Over 10 years ago I built a somewhat large (~2' by 4') horizontal setup around a heavy aluminum thick base and the 95mm optical system for multiple uses, and eventually adapted it for macro work.

Recently (this week) I've added a 600mm XT95B vertical bar mounted to a XT95P11 Drop-On Carriage (or XT95P12 Rail plate for a fixed mount if I chose). This allows easy removal of the Vertical bar assembly but a very secure mount, and allows sliding positioning of the Vertical bar to boot!! It works way better than I thought.

The Thor stuff is engineered for precision and stability, and does so very well indeed. The XT95P11 Drop-On carriage is a superbly engineered example, with just 2 large Allen Head bolts it can flip off the One-Sided Rail XT95SP Rail, slide along the rail, or be tightly secured to the rail with just a couple twists with the Allen Heads ....Brilliant!! Honestly, I didn't think this would be secure enough for the vertical bar, that's why I ordered the XT95P3 base plate, but the Drop-On carriage proved me wrong, it fiercely holds onto the One-Sided Rail when locked down :shock:

Also use the XT95P11 Drop-On carriage to hold the focus rails and the XT95P12 Rail plate to hold my surplus Alessi probe positioner modified for subject holding. I spent most of the weekend drilling and tapping holes in the Drop-On carriage to directly mount the THK focus rails. I elected to use direct mounting without any additional mechanical interfaces for the most secure mount, and since the carriage can be removed or repositioned so easy, it's as convenient as a ARCA rail/clamp but much more rigid.

Thor stuff is expensive, but very well engineered and built. If you spend some time on their site you can probably construct what you're looking for, but be prepared for a relatively expensive bar tab :roll:

Cheers,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

Folks have been mounting phonograph turntables to walls for decades. Turntables are of course very sensitive to vibration and mounting structures have been devised to minimize coupling and such. See here for some examples:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/t ... ng.199765/

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

Beats, Ray,

Wouldn't mounting to a wall create a very large effective microphone diaphragm capable of coupling low frequency sounds to the setup??

I know way back in the Cold War era that the Soviets used coherent laser differential radar to remotely listen into rooms. They could use room windows, doors or even walls as large diaphragms and measure the minute window/door/wall movements caused by the acoustic pressure changes from voice. The remote laser would bounce back to the coherent receiver which would "mix" the transmitted laser signal with the returned laser signal to revel any variations in path length and process this differential return signal to revel the voice discussions :shock:

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

I think the idea is to mount to the studs, which are pretty stable.

Beatsy
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Post by Beatsy »

Thanks for the comments all. Just to clarify a couple of things.

The wall in question is an exterior brick wall, a foot thick with no cavity (old house). Providing I don't bounce around, the only real source of vibration is occasional traffic hitting a speed bump about 70 yards away (not that often really). That's being changed for a lower profile "traffic calming pad", so I expect things to improve soon.

There *really* isn't any desk/bench space spare, let alone space for another table - even a small one. There is ample, comfortable work space at each instrument (fully unimpeded access to operate them), but I have to change position slowly and carefully when moving between things (on my wheelie chair). It's second nature now - I never just turn round quickly anymore. I always check where I am in relation to "stuff" first, then move. That's how "tight" the gaps between my work areas have become.

It's even worse when I'm running a stack. Wait for click, move a bit, wait for next click, move a bit more, and so on. I'm like some kind of staccato, stop-motion sloth then :D

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

It's even worse when I'm running a stack. Wait for click, move a bit, wait for next click, move a bit more, and so on. I'm like some kind of staccato, stop-motion sloth then :
Yeah I know what you mean, I have to "instruct" my family to not open/slam the doors until they see the flash. They fail the instruction more often than not, then complain that the house is not my lab :shock:

We have a democracy in my house and I don't get a vote :?

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

Any thoughts on using a mirror to convert your existing horizontal set-up into a vertical one?

ray_parkhurst
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Post by ray_parkhurst »

Lou Jost wrote:Any thoughts on using a mirror to convert your existing horizontal set-up into a vertical one?
That could work if the working distance was long enough, or if the mirror was placed in infinite space. But for finite systems with limited working distance, I don't see it as practical.

Beatsy
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Post by Beatsy »

Lou Jost wrote:Any thoughts on using a mirror to convert your existing horizontal set-up into a vertical one?
Yes, prompted by your mention of it in another recent thread. Trouble is that higher mags involve shorter working distances so even a tiny crumb of first-surface mirror starts to get in the way of the lighting. At least for the way I do diffused lighting anyway. I'd rather have a dedicated platform just for ease of (often impromptu) use.

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

Yes, it does require a fair working distance. But a half-silvered one would solve lighting problems rather than causing them...there would be nothing blocking the subject and even axial light would be possible.

But agreed, the working distance is probably insufficient at very high m.

mjkzz
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Post by mjkzz »

PMJI, maybe put the mirror/half mirror behind objective, I have seen such device for coaxial lighting, just re-purpose it . . . just a thought.

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

That's the normal way. In the infinity space between tube lens and infinity-corrected optics, it works well, but for finite objectives it doesn't work so well. That's why putting it in front of the object is helpful; that causes virtually no aberrations for either infinity-corrected or finite lenses.

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