Flash Triggering With Nikon D850 and EFCS

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RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

mawyatt wrote:Peter,

Thanks, you have good intuition :D

Yes, the subjects in liquid as Lou mentioned are probably better isolated from the camera/lens.

Here's some MIT lecture notes on 2nd Order Mechanical Systems. The camera induced vibration from mirror flop and/or shutter curtains can be reasonably approximated as an impulse function excited 2nd order system.

As such note equation 1.67 and figures 1.25 & 1.26. These illustrate the vibration induced behavior well and aren't too complex. Note that the system stiffness causes the natural frequency to increase, and nicely illustrated in figure 1.25.

Here's a quote from the notes.

"Thus, the mass with initial velocity 1 “runs into” a stiffer system, and is returned to rest more rapidly"

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mechanical- ... lment2.pdf

Best,

Thanks for all the notes Mike.

Now that all said I carried out a quick real world test.

I shot 5 images at 1.3x and 1.5 second shutter speed, all focus bracketed, all with the subject and stand on a single base, release delay and Q mode. I did not bother to dig out a remote release.

1. Ambient only No EFCS / electronic shutter.
2. Full electronic shutter
3. EFCS only
4. Flash and EFCS
5. Flash only

The test was a waste of time, a total 100% failure.

They were all sharp at 100% view in PS :?

I don't think I would have seen these results on the D800/D800E/D810 from my experience.

Also went to a faster shutter speed of 1/4 sec and these were all too sharp to show anything useful.

I prefer to use flash over ambient for more consistent sharpness in my experience but this test was a surprise for me, I expected to see at least some sharpness loss with the mechanical shutter. I don't normally put too much faith in a marketing companies' new product brochure but this might have something to do with the sharp looking images in my test. From the Nikon D850 brochure, my highlighting:

Image

mawyatt
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Location: Clearwater, Florida

Post by mawyatt »

RobertOToole wrote:
mawyatt wrote:Peter,

Thanks, you have good intuition :D

Yes, the subjects in liquid as Lou mentioned are probably better isolated from the camera/lens.

Here's some MIT lecture notes on 2nd Order Mechanical Systems. The camera induced vibration from mirror flop and/or shutter curtains can be reasonably approximated as an impulse function excited 2nd order system.

As such note equation 1.67 and figures 1.25 & 1.26. These illustrate the vibration induced behavior well and aren't too complex. Note that the system stiffness causes the natural frequency to increase, and nicely illustrated in figure 1.25.

Here's a quote from the notes.

"Thus, the mass with initial velocity 1 “runs into” a stiffer system, and is returned to rest more rapidly"

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mechanical- ... lment2.pdf

Best,

Thanks for all the notes Mike.

Now that all said I carried out a quick real world test.

I shot 5 images at 1.3x and 1.5 second shutter speed, all focus bracketed, all with the subject and stand on a single base, release delay and Q mode. I did not bother to dig out a remote release.

1. Ambient only No EFCS / electronic shutter.
2. Full electronic shutter
3. EFCS only
4. Flash and EFCS
5. Flash only

The test was a waste of time, a total 100% failure.

They were all sharp at 100% view in PS :?

I don't think I would have seen these results on the D800/D800E/D810 from my experience.

Also went to a faster shutter speed of 1/4 sec and these were all too sharp to show anything useful.

I prefer to use flash over ambient for more consistent sharpness in my experience but this test was a surprise for me, I expected to see at least some sharpness loss with the mechanical shutter. I don't normally put too much faith in a marketing companies' new product brochure but this might have something to do with the sharp looking images in my test. From the Nikon D850 brochure, my highlighting:

Image
Robert,

I think you might need to be at much higher magnifications to begin to see the difference. Your system is so well designed and "stiff" that even with front curtain vibration the vibration period is so short and amplitude so small as not to influence the image (see Figure 1.25 in the MIT notes above).

Not trying to create work for you, as you've already done a ton :roll: but maybe another test at 10~20X?

That's interesting about the D850, I knew about the lower vibration shutter design, but not the duration monitoring and adjustment :oops:

Thanks for enlightenment :D

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

mawyatt wrote:
I think you might need to be at much higher magnifications to begin to see the difference. Your system is so well designed and "stiff" that even with front curtain vibration the vibration period is so short and amplitude so small as not to influence the image (see Figure 1.25 in the MIT notes above).
Hi Mike,

That was exactly my first thought as I was walking over the the lens cabinet to grab a Mitutoyo I regained my sanity.

The last thing I need is another project.

Off the top of my head, these are on the shelf and in the queue:

-70-90mm scanner lens shootout 6-7 lenses
-Tube lens shootout
-Sigma LSA clone test
-Laowa vs Oshiro 60mm lenses @ 2x
-Minolta PRO scanner lens test
-Low dollar, less than $50 budget macro lens shoot out
-New Thorlabs vertical rig
-Nikon machine vision lens test
-Admon (scanner Nikkor ED lookalike) scanner lens test

This is only I can recall at the moment!

Best,

Robert

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

All those sound very interesting!!!!!

RobertOToole
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Post by RobertOToole »

I just posted a follow up to this thread.

You have to see this:

Nikon D850 Electronic vs Mechanical Shutter Test at 20x

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=37178

mawyatt
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Location: Clearwater, Florida

Post by mawyatt »

RobertOToole wrote:I just posted a follow up to this thread.

You have to see this:

Nikon D850 Electronic vs Mechanical Shutter Test at 20x

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=37178
Robert,

I see you yielded to the temptation :D

Best,
Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

And we are all glad you did! That's a very surprising result.

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