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Zerene Stacker and retouch color control
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Luisifer



Joined: 05 Sep 2018
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Location: Czech Republic

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Zerene Stacker and retouch color control Reply with quote

Few ideas for ZS retouching tool:

1) Would be possible to add retouching from selected group of files (now it is possible to select only one file if i am right).

It should be better than rendering of subgroups and other subgroups and .... and later stacking of subgroups of subgroups of subgroups...

2) "Opposite" retouching tool than detail which would for selected image(s) remove the influence of painted pixels from the result.
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Adalbert



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Luisifer,
What about substacks?
BR, ADi
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Luisifer



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adalbert: sry for imprecise terminology. Mentioned subgroups are substacks.

One thing is to prepare huge number of different substacks (and not to be lost at it) and another thing is just select few images and work with that selection.
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Luisifer



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3) i just walked through the retouching hell :-) that show me huge weakness of ZS and retouching. When it was too much retouching i had to commit the retouching and save project for "next day". But when i continue with new retouching from "old one" and combining "last retouched version" with one image from the stack, it changes tones again. That mean already retouched parts had to be retouched again and again and again. It tooks me one tablet's pen tip and a lot of time.

It would be super to have possibility to save "uncommited" retouching for the next day...
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rjlittlefield
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luisifer wrote:
It would be super to have possibility to save "uncommited" retouching for the next day...

When the retouched image is "committed", all that happens is that it gets written to disk as a new Output Image.

Standard operating procedure is that to resume retouching, you just select that new output image, Edit > Start Retouching, and you'll be back where you were before committing. There is no need to retouch any already retouched parts, and nothing will change tone. The commit, save, and reload are lossless, using a proprietary 32-bit floating point format.

If you need to shut down Zerene Stacker between sessions, then you should File > Save Project before shutting down, and File > Open Project after relaunching. The save and re-open are lossless also, except that the console log file is not part of the saved project.

If you see something else happening, then please write to me as support@zerenesystems.com, telling me how to reproduce your problem. I'm the fellow who wrote the code and answers all support requests.

--Rik
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rjlittlefield
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luisifer wrote:
another thing is just select few images and work with that selection.

For that, there is Stack Selected. See for example the scenario at https://zerenesystems.com/cms/stacker/docs/tutorials/stackselectedfortransparentforeground .

--Rik
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Luisifer



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, stack selected create substacks. (that's the point)

About the retouching of already retouched (commited). Maybe i got the idea why it was still changing. I needed UDR. And retouched was UDR with "non"UDR single image from the original stack.

I can pack the project, upload it and send you the link, if you want.
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rjlittlefield
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luisifer wrote:
I can pack the project, upload it and send you the link, if you want.

I would be interested to see the project. If you can reproduce the problem and include one or more screen captures, marked up to illustrate your concerns, that would be a great help.

--Rik
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rjlittlefield
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Zerene Stacker and retouch color control Reply with quote

Luisifer wrote:
1) Would be possible to add retouching from selected group of files (now it is possible to select only one file if i am right).

Are you thinking of a sort of on-the-fly combination of Stack Selected and brushing from the result?

If not, then please describe in a lot more detail the capability that you would like to have.

Quote:
2) "Opposite" retouching tool than detail which would for selected image(s) remove the influence of painted pixels from the result.

There is a standard undo/redo capability that works with a stack of changes.

But I assume you're talking about something other than standard undo/redo. I just don't understand what it would be. Are you thinking that your "opposite" retouching tool would be a sort of brush-controlled version of undo?

BTW, if you are running trial or Personal Edition, then by default undo is only one level. To get unlimited levels, go to Options > Preferences > Caching & Undo, and put a checkmark on "Enable advanced undo".

--Rik
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Luisifer



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I packed it and it tooks 8 GB, with 10Mbps uplink it is not possible to upload it today.

But i can provide some screenshots for now:


1: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_1.jpg
2: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_2.jpg
3: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_3.jpg
4: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_4.jpg
5: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_5.jpg
6: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_6.jpg
7: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_7.jpg
8: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_8.jpg
9: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_9.jpg
10: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_10.jpg
11: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_11.jpg
12: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_12.jpg
13: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_13.jpg
14: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_14.jpg
15: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_15.jpg
16: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_16.jpg
17: https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_17.jpg

It is close to complete timeline. Whole time i was continue with retouching of previous retouched version and used IMG_9008.tif as input file for retouching.

Problem is well visible for example between 7. and 8.:

https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_7.jpg
https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_8.jpg

or between 15. and 16.:

https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_15.jpg
https://12in.cz/temp/zs_kom/zs_kom_16.jpg

(still only retouching of previous and IMG_9008.tif and for example right down corner is completly retouched again because of tone change)
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Last edited by Luisifer on Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Luisifer



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Zerene Stacker and retouch color control Reply with quote

rjlittlefield wrote:

Are you thinking of a sort of on-the-fly combination of Stack Selected and brushing from the result?


Yes, it should be named like that.


Quote:
But I assume you're talking about something other than standard undo/redo. I just don't understand what it would be. Are you thinking that your "opposite" retouching tool would be a sort of brush-controlled version of undo?


No, this idea is not about undo/redo drawing tool. It is about "what to have to disappear from the influence on the result".

With the default brush tool (details) you are redrawing informations on the foreground from selected source. Opposite mean remove informations which should be not in the result. (for example halos should be removed more effective way)
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rjlittlefield
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luisifer wrote:
But i can provide some screenshots for now:

Thanks for those. Am I correct that this subject is the mosquito shown at http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38358 ?

It looks to me like most of the problem with retouching is that you're working with a set of UDR images that have been saved with "Retain extended dynamic range".

The difficulty there is that it means every image has had a different levels adjustment applied. So for example your first Input File is a UDR that has much lower overall contrast than your second one, and both of those are much different from camera sources such as IMG_8595. The differences in brightness and contrast make it impossible to get a seamless retouch without further modifying the levels. The default Details brush makes a valiant effort to do that, but it will certainly make significant changes in brightness as needed to hide the seams, especially if large areas are brushed. Those changes would not happen if you used the Pixels brush, but then you would get even more ugly trails caused by painting from one brightness into another. I don't think there's any way to win at that game.

Quote:
With the default brush tool (details) you are redrawing informations on the foreground from selected source. Opposite mean remove informations which should be not in the result. (for example halos should be removed more effective way)

Hhmm... Each of the halos we see here results from information contributed by many images. Removing the information contributed by only one or a few images would have very little effect, essentially equal to omitting those images from the stack to start with.

I think the only good attack on halos like these is to use a better stacking method, so as to not generate such bad halos in the first place. The usual approach for a stack like this is to make fairly shallow slabs with PMax, then combine the slab outputs with DMap. This is greatly facilitated by using one of the slab-generating programs such as Bugslabber or SlabberJockey.

There may be additional improvements that can be made inside the stacking codes. I cannot tell without having the stack as camera level images to work with.

Quote:
I packed it and it tooks 8 GB, with 10Mbps uplink it is not possible to upload it today.

Now that I have seen your screenshots, I think it would not be helpful to receive the project shown in the screenshots. The problems are already locked into that project by the way the Input Files were generated.

On the other hand, I would like very much to receive the original set of source images, as JPEG, resized smaller if necessary to fit within your bandwidth limitations. This would give me a chance to experiment with other workflows and code changes that might yield a better result without hours of retouching.

--Rik
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Luisifer



Joined: 05 Sep 2018
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Location: Czech Republic

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your help. Now i am not near to my computer. I will send the pack of source files later. It will takes the time too because of i already deleted tiffs and i have to start again from raw files.

The problem caused Retain extended dynamic range indeed. I have to do that another way.

But it is only half of the problem. Retouched (sub)results was not exportet as REDR. I accepted that whole backgrond needs retouching in that case. It would be ok but after commiting retouching it was changing already changed again.


Quote:
Hhmm... Each of the halos we see here results from information contributed by many images. Removing the information contributed by only one or a few images would have very little effect, essentially equal to omitting those images from the stack to start with.


Ok, it should be about selecting more images at once for removing brush.

(Yes, it is that mosquito)
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rjlittlefield
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luisifer wrote:
I accepted that whole backgrond needs retouching in that case. It would be ok but after commiting retouching it was changing already changed again.

I have again reviewed your screenshots.

The changes that I see between 7 and 8, and between 15 and 16, look like normal operation of the default retouching brush when large areas of the image are painted.

I wrote earlier that the default brush "will certainly make significant changes in brightness as needed to hide the seams, especially if large areas are brushed." Those changes in brightness can extend far beyond the circle of the retouching brush. I have even seen one case where the entire image was affected, after a brushstroke that painted background over a wide area.

These changes occur when the mouse button is released, on each retouching stroke. No further changes are made when the image is saved by Edit > Commit Retouching. However, I can easily imagine that the changes might not be noticed until that time.

As mentioned earlier, the Pixels brush will not make changes over such large areas. In exchange, the Pixels brush is not as good at making seamless edits. But it does provide a softness control that allows a skilled user to work around that issue. I suggest trying the Pixels brush to see if it meets your needs better.

Quote:
I will send the pack of source files later. It will takes the time too because of i already deleted tiffs and i have to start again from raw files.

Thank you. I look forward to working with that material, at your convenience.

--Rik
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Luisifer



Joined: 05 Sep 2018
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I wrote earlier that the default brush "will certainly make significant changes in brightness as needed to hide the seams, especially if large areas are brushed." Those changes in brightness can extend far beyond the circle of the retouching brush. I have even seen one case where the entire image was affected, after a brushstroke that painted background over a wide area.


I know that, i use that, i like that. Smile Point is that after few releasing of mouse (or pen) the brightness is stabilizated and other new click/drawing over that area doesn't change anything. But.... after commiting stable retouching there is created new ZSY file and new retouching from that ZSY file in some close location which can be so close that it is necessary to overlay strokes over the previous retouching that cause new change of brightness.

...

ACR genrated Tiffs already, now PS going through by retouching of dirt. It will take a lot of time because PS doesn't know to accelerate that kind of batch process and use very low computing resources to do the retouching batch.
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