Trying to understand Topaz Sharpen AI

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JH
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Trying to understand Topaz Sharpen AI

Post by JH »

I am trying to undestand Topaz Sharpen AI
I downloaded the 30-day trial. The program is easy to use, and the result looks pleasing in most macro photo cases that I have tried. But I have a slight feeling that the program adds features that I am not sure if they are there in the first place. Below is a gif at 400%. I have put the arrow at what I think might be an example of "invented" structures.

Image
Jörgen Hellberg, my webbsite www.hellberg.photo

TheDocAUS
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Post by TheDocAUS »

I am also using it - free upgrade for me as I have In-Focus. I have not noticed anything like that so far.

However, I have noticed differences in sharpening when processing the same image, stacked by difference methods.

The other product to look at is Franzis Sharpen. I think AI is better, but slower.

pbraub
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Post by pbraub »

Do you have the option to use an higher NA objective to establish a ground truth?

Similar to this approach in microscopy (see figs 1 and 2)?

Peter

Smokedaddy
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Post by Smokedaddy »

... you should try RawTherapee (plus it's free). Runs on Linux, Windows or Mac too.

https://rawtherapee.com/

-JW:

gardenersassistant
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Re: Trying to understand Topaz Sharpen AI

Post by gardenersassistant »

JH wrote:I am trying to undestand Topaz Sharpen AI
I downloaded the 30-day trial. The program is easy to use, and the result looks pleasing in most macro photo cases that I have tried. But I have a slight feeling that the program adds features that I am not sure if they are there in the first place. Below is a gif at 400%. I have put the arrow at what I think might be an example of "invented" structures.
I have been testing it too for close-ups and macros. I have been using it at the end of a workflow that goes from raw to JPEG of size 1300 pixels high, which is the viewing size I sharpen for. The workflow involves DXO PhotoLab, Silkypix and Lightroom for invertebrate macros and DXO and Lightroom for botanical close-ups. Especially with invertebrates I am looking to mitigate some of the effects of diffraction and reveal detail, so the JPEGs are quite carefully sharpened. It is on these JPEGs that I have tested Sharpen AI.

I have tried Sharpen AI with three sets of images. The first, here, had 45 invertebrate images and 7 botanical images. I used Sharpen AI for all of them, and at the time was happy with the results. The results were generally quite subtle, I suspect below the level that many would think significant, but I do look at these things quite closely and even these subtle changes seemed like an improvement to me. In two cases (two of images 39, 40 and 41, I don't remember which two) after using Sharpen AI I decided to use images that I had not been prepared to use prior to using it.

On reconsideration in the light of the third set described below, I am slightly uncomfortable with the petal textures on the bottom right hand flower of image 51. I can't decide whether this is because of invented detail or simply an overdone (to my taste) increase in microcontrast, which can be greatly affected by slider settings.

The second set, here, was 16 macros of two rather small invertebrates. I was content with the effect of Sharpen AI on these.

The third set, here, was 13 botanical close-ups. I did not like the effect of Sharpen AI on the Camellia petals. I definitely wondered about invented details in these cases. (I have to go out in a few minutes and don't have time to prepare examples. I could do that later if of interest.) I didn't use Sharpen AI for any of the images, although on reflection it probably would have been worth trying it for the non-camellia images, especially the hairy buds, images 11 and 12.

For me this is a test in progress. I think I may end up buying it to use for invertebrates. I don't have a clear idea of how much I might use it for botanical close-ups. I'm in the early "enthusiasm" stage at the moment, which may be clouding my judgement, so it is entirely possible that after getting over that I will decide the effects are over the top for both types of images.
Nick

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Rework and reposts of my images posted in this forum are always welcome, especially if they come with an explanation of what you did and how you did it.

gardenersassistant
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Re: Trying to understand Topaz Sharpen AI

Post by gardenersassistant »

gardenersassistant wrote:
JH wrote:The third set, here, was 13 botanical close-ups. I did not like the effect of Sharpen AI on the Camellia petals. I definitely wondered about invented details in these cases. (I have to go out in a few minutes and don't have time to prepare examples. I could do that later if of interest.) I didn't use Sharpen AI for any of the images, although on reflection it probably would have been worth trying it for the non-camellia images, especially the hairy buds, images 11 and 12.

For me this is a test in progress. I think I may end up buying it to use for invertebrates. I don't have a clear idea of how much I might use it for botanical close-ups. I'm in the early "enthusiasm" stage at the moment, which may be clouding my judgement, so it is entirely possible that after getting over that I will decide the effects are over the top for both types of images.
I have gone through the third set again, this time exploring the Sharpen AI slider settings more thoroughly. I was working on the JPEGs in this album at Flickr, which had not had Sharpen AI applied.

I used the Sharpen tab. (I have experimented with the Stabilization tab and the Focus tab, but have not found a use for either of them yet.)

I can't relate at all to the names of the first two sliders (I left the third, "Add Grain" slider on zero. I haven't played with that at all yet.) It seems to me that the "Suppress Noise" slider acts an "Increase microcontrast" slider. This is for my images, or at least those few of mine that I have tried. They have already had DXO's rather good PRIME noise reduction at the start of the workflow pipeline, so perhaps I wouldn't notice any difference in noise because of that. But what I do notice is an increase i detail visibility, which looks like a microcontrast enhancement to me. I don't have such a clear impression of what the "Remove Blur" slider does. I think it may have to do at least partly with edge enhancement.

I found that with settings of less than 0.5 for both sliders I could get results that looked better to me than without Sharpen AI, while not "shouting" at me with excessive microcontrast or edge sharpness, or "twinkling" too brightly. The settings varied from image to image. I have put the reworked images in this album at Flickr. You can see from the end of the filenames what parameters I applied in Sharpen AI. As before I think the changes are so small that most people might not see them even if looking fairly closely, or if they did see them might well not think them worth the extra effort. For my part I do prefer the ones with Sharpen AI applied.

This exercise makes it more likely that I will purchase Sharpen AI.
Nick

Flickr
Blog
Journey since 2007

Rework and reposts of my images posted in this forum are always welcome, especially if they come with an explanation of what you did and how you did it.

JH
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Post by JH »

Thanks for the comments and ideas!
TheDocAUS wrote:I am also using it - free upgrade for me as I have In-Focus.
I also have in focus but it looks like I still have to pay - maybe I did something wrong/different downloading the program.
pbraub wrote:Do you have the option to use an higher NA objective to establish a ground truth?
Ground truth thats a good idea, after lifting my head up from the microscope, realising that there is an entire normal world I took some normal pictures and started to test different sharpeing settings on normal subjects that I know what they should look like. After that it was much easier for me to come to the same conclusion as gardenassistant and use less than 0.5
gardenersassistant wrote: I found that with settings of less than 0.5 for both sliders I could get results that looked better to me than without Sharpen AI, while not "shouting" at me with excessive microcontrast or edge sharpness, or "twinkling" too brightly. The settings varied from image to image.
I have not yet decided if I "need" Topaz AI or not. I do not mind the quite long processing time but would like to have a batch function that I can use from Adobe PS.

Best regards
Jörgen Hellberg
Jörgen Hellberg, my webbsite www.hellberg.photo

TheDocAUS
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Location: Sydney

Post by TheDocAUS »

It took me a while to work out how to get the free upgrade.

You need to be logged on, using your InFocus email address. There should be an offer to upgrade free, click on it and it puts a coupon into the cart meaning cost is $0.

Or contact the Topaz helpdesk.

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