Which camera bodies have fully electronic shutter?

[mawyatt]

ADi, perfect !!

I did not know how to explain it without anyone feeling upset, ...

What camera do you use, ... in "theory" it should be feasible to use faster exposure speeds.

Only the total readout time + margin 1 + flash time + margin2.

Margin is a prudential time between the readout and the trigger of the flash, or between the end of the flash and the end of exposure of the first row.
Thus, both margins can be thousands, and the flash time at maximum powers I think is also of the order of one thousandth of a second (I have read that it is between 1/750 and 1/2500 according to the manufacturer), ...

Therefore for a readout of 1/15, flash of 1/750, margins of 2 milliseconds, we would have:

1/15 + margin1 + flash + margin2 =

1/15 + 2/1000 + 1/750 + 2/1000 = 0.072 s equivalent to 1/13.9 of second ...

For a flash of 1/2500, it is practically the same

This could allow photography with a soft ambient light, if the flash power is sufficient.

Best regards.

I think there is something missing in your formula -- shutter lag and for some (most) cameras (I have at least). this shutter lag is variable, ie, it is NOT constant from shots to shots. For Nikon cameras, this behavior is even more pronounced.

For my Sony A7III, in ES mode, it is, too, variable, but at lesser degree. So I always set delay to 1/2s with shutter speend at 1/2s, I have never missed a single shot yet (after 1000s of shots).

Yes this is true, the Nikon cameras can have quite a variability in delay time from camera trigger to shutter opening when triggered remotely. I recall something like ~50ms variability and a average delay from external trigger to shutter of ~200ms for the D850, other bodies have different average delays. Don't think this is so when triggered on the camera (trigger button) though, the variability and average delay are much less.

Best,

[mawyatt]

I have the fujifilm x pro2 camera. It has an option for electronic shutter mode only. the problem is that if using a flash it can't be set to electronic shutter mode.

In theory you can use a flash if you choose a slow shutter time and two external relays, one to shoot the camera and another that later triggers the flash.

For this we must take into account the general rolling shutter process in cameras with CMOS sensor, which we normally use.

The sensor does not expose all its surface simultaneously, in fact if we put an exposure time of 1/1000, the exposure begins the first row, the second row begins its exposure a time later. This time is the line time. The last row begins its exposure a later time that is equal to: line time x number of rows, this is what is called readout time.

The readout time, can be greater than 1/15 of a second, that is, in this case and for a shutter of 1/1000, the last row would begin its exposure long after the first row had finished its own, practically 1/15 after (exactly (1/15) - (1/1000)).

Therefore, you have to take into account the total readout time of your camera's sensor. The readout time of the Fuji I do not know it with precision, but I understand that it is between 1/15 and 1/30 (depending on the models, the X-Pro2 I have read is 1/30). In other words, the last word of the sensor starts to be exposed approximately between 1/30 and 1/15 of a second after the first one starts.

This means that if for example the readout of the sensor is 1/15 and we put the exposure time of the ES in a second, the last row starts to be exposed when the first line has already received 1/15 of a second receiving photons. At this moment, the first row still has 14/15 of a second to complete its exposure time.

If after the first 1/15 of a second the flash is triggered, both the first and the last line receive the light of the flash, and the whole sensor will be exposed by the flash.

Here we have a scheme for rolling-shutter readout: Each row has the same exposure length, but starts and stops at different moments in time. In green I have marked when the flash must be triggered.



A procedure using two relays could be:

- Put the ES with an exposure time greater than 1/15 sec, for example 1/2 s:
- The first relay triggers the camera
- 1/15 of a second later, the other relay triggers the flash.

This should work, ... as a precaution, we should use with low powers of flash, ... because although I have no record, I do not know the problems of possible damage to the sensor mentioned by Mike.

best

RDolz,

Thanks, this is an excellent illustration of the timing necessary for proper exposure with strobe/flash when using electronic curtains.

BTW as mentioned I asked about this fully electronic curtain behavior and blocking the Hot Shoe over on DPR in the Science & Technical section. What's been offered so far is the very slow readout time as the culprit, but no one mentioned sensor damage yet (although no one has indicated they are actual sensor designers yet either).

Best,

[Lou Jost]

Mike, since the Olympus cameras use flash normally with their fully electronic shutters, I would imagine that sensor damage is not an issue.

[mawyatt]

Lou,

Probably true, but I wish a CMOS sensor designer would comment over on DPR, I know there are a couple that post over there, including the inventor of CMOS sensors. If this isn't an issue then the only reason to block the hot shoe would be image contamination, or just tick all us macro folks off

Best,

[Adalbert]

Hello Rane,

I have three DSLRs, 7Dmk2, 80D and 6Dmk2. I mainly shoot my macros with 80D, because it has the biggest pixel density and the best DR in Canon APS-C bodies. I think they all have this EFCS thingy, but not the fully electronic shutter. Maybe the easiest route is just to get a Sony 6300/6500 and some adapters and cables. But, I'm not in a hurry, I can always wait and see what Canon does with the 7Dmk3, will it be old technic or mirrorless. I shoot birds too, that's why I need one fast body. There are rumors about the Sony 7000 as a 7Dmk2 killer, but rumors come rumors go.

What kind of the macro-photography do you prefer: studio & high magnification or outdoors?
For outdoors I would recommend the cameras with the focus bracketing or something like that (e.g. Olympus, Panasonic or CANON with ML)
BTW, ML doesn’t run on the newest CANON - cameras
https://magiclantern.fm/
BR, ADi

[mjkzz]

Yes this is true, the Nikon cameras can have quite a variability in delay time from camera trigger to shutter opening when triggered remotely. I recall something like ~50ms variability and a average delay from external trigger to shutter of ~200ms for the D850, other bodies have different average delays. Don't think this is so when triggered on the camera (trigger button) though, the variability and average delay are much less.

Not sure. At least the low end Nikon (my D5200 vs your high end one), it can definitely be more than 50ms.

[RobertOToole]

Had a chance to shoot with a Sony a7RIII last week and I can confirm:

-Silent, full electronic shutter mode is available on the a7RIII.
-The silent full electronic shutter will work with/trigger flash.
-In pixel shift mode the shutter is pre-set to 1/13th of a second and is full compatible with flash.

Robert

[mawyatt]

Robert,

Good to know Sony didn't block the Hot Shoe on the a7RIII. Now if we can only get Nikon to "Read the Mail" and update their firmware

Best,

[RobertOToole]

Robert,

Good to know Sony didn't block the Hot Shoe on the a7RIII. Now if we can only get Nikon to "Read the Mail" and update their firmware

Best,

Yes full electronic shutter on the D850 would be awesome. I have a sneaking suspicion we won't see any significant updates to the D850 since all of Nikon's attention will be on the newer Z series and Z mount lenses I'm sad to say.

Nikon also really needs to offer pixel shift HR mode at some point in the Z series. My next body will have pixel shift so the D850 might be my last Nikon body if they don't.

All the best,

Robert

[mawyatt]

Robert,

Good to know Sony didn't block the Hot Shoe on the a7RIII. Now if we can only get Nikon to "Read the Mail" and update their firmware

Best,

Yes full electronic shutter on the D850 would be awesome. I have a sneaking suspicion we won't see any significant updates to the D850 since all of Nikon's attention will be on the newer Z series and Z mount lenses I'm sad to say.

Nikon also really needs to offer pixel shift HR mode at some point in the Z series. My next body will have pixel shift so the D850 might be my last Nikon body if they don't.

All the best,

Robert

Nikon has the ability hardware-wise to do pixel shifting with the new Z series, they just need the firmware. Maybe someone will hack the Z7 if Nikon doesn't offer this?

With the new Z mount Nikons are already showing the ability of this mount with the new lenses like the Z mount 50mm F1.8 which reviews show is quite good compared to anything available regardless of cost, and the Nikon is one of the lower cost high end performers! I expect the upcoming lenses to be equally good also.

I do expect they will offer pixel shifting, since most everyone else has it, and the new Nikon management in place isn't rooted in the past.

Best,