[AdminCS edit: I've split this post into a thread of its own here in the equipment discussion section. The "very recent discussion" to which Crystalline refers is: http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 118#206118 .]
I was about to send a message on "Mitutoyo lenses: to e-bay or not to e-bay?" and I am so happy that after a lot of search I found this very recent discussion!
And ChrisR with his huge experience on testing Mitutoyo lenses is here! :-)
Two sets of questions for anyone wishing to help:
1) I echo the question of abpho: "There are surprisingly many "new" Mitutoyo lenses for "used" prices on EBay". Can anybody explain how this can happen (how the seller could get the lens new at such a low price)? The lenses seem perfectly new and have all their papers. In addition the comments from previous buyers are excellent. Is it safe to buy?
It will be my first Mitutoyo and cannot compare it with some standard quality, if bought. ChrisR is far away to assist in testing it within 14 days... In addition, I recently had a traumatic experience with a "new" Nikon 10x that I bought in e-bay (see: http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... highlight= ). If I buy a Mitu and have bad results once more I need to be sure if the problem is in the lens or in my rig, so the risk is high...
2) If we do have the budget for a new lens, many fellows here suggest Edmund Optics as the most secure place to buy a Mitutoyo. However, the price is huge (higher than in Mitutoyo themselves!) and customs for Europe will make the price even higher. Can I 100% trust the Mitutoyo's network in Europe? ThorLabs ( https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9. ... up_id=1044) maybe?
Hope you can help or have some experience on how to buy a Mitu in Europe.
Mitutoyo lenses: To eBay or not to eBay?
Moderators: rjlittlefield, ChrisR, Chris S., Pau
Re: Mitutoyo lenses: to e-bay or not to e-bay?
You asked ChrisR, but until he responds, I’ll (Chris S.) offer my opinion. I’ve lost count of how many dozens of microscope objectives I’ve tested. These include a good many of ChrisR’s lenses.
On this experience, my advice is that purchasing second-hand microscope objectives can save you a lot of money. But only do so if you have a return privilege, the means to test the objective, and a quote for return shipping that is not unduly burdensome.
Cosmetics of a microscope lens are no basis for judging it—plenty of cosmetically perfect objectives are optically horrible. And some objectives that look badly beaten to the eye make wonderful images. Testing is the only way to determine if an objective is a keeper or a dud.
My preferred method of testing objectives is to shoot stacks of a known test target, illuminated by diffuse light. I shoot one stack with the test lens, and another with a known-good lens of the same model. Framing should be as identical as possible—to do this, I adjust the position of the test target with micrometers, as no two objectives have exactly the same framing. But no matter how careful the tester is, framing will still be off a bit, as no two objectives have exactly the same magnification. Stacking is important in such tests, for minimizing focus errors and differences in field flatness, which isn’t very important for those of us who routinely focus stack.
Once shot and processed with PMax in Zerene Stacker, I bring these image stacks into a single Photoshop file, with each stack in its own layer. Then flash between layers to compare—a very sensitive test. This observation should include scrutiny at 200 percent, 400 percent, and sometimes more. This scrutiny should be repeated for image center and all four corners.
Having done this many times, I can say that no two microscope objectives render exactly alike, when viewed at this level of pixel-peeping. Among good objectives, differences exist in the balance of center resolution vs. edge resolution; chromatic aberration; contrast; etc. If doing this sort of comparison repeatedly, one gets a feel for acceptable differences of expression among good specimens of a lens. This is very distinct from image faults imparted by a bad lens specimen. A bad lens usually seems a huge qualitative jump below a good one of any flavor.
So Crystalline, in answer to your questions:
"Seeming perfectly new" means nothing, and papers mean nothing. I recently tested a lens that seemed new, but was an optical disaster. So no, not safe to buy, unless you have the capability to test and return if needed.
So I’d say that it is not safe to buy without testing and potential return, even if a seller has solid feedback.
Crystalline, I’ll also PM you with a couple of “known good” Mitutoyo 10x objectives from a European source.
Cheers,
--Chris S.
On this experience, my advice is that purchasing second-hand microscope objectives can save you a lot of money. But only do so if you have a return privilege, the means to test the objective, and a quote for return shipping that is not unduly burdensome.
Cosmetics of a microscope lens are no basis for judging it—plenty of cosmetically perfect objectives are optically horrible. And some objectives that look badly beaten to the eye make wonderful images. Testing is the only way to determine if an objective is a keeper or a dud.
My preferred method of testing objectives is to shoot stacks of a known test target, illuminated by diffuse light. I shoot one stack with the test lens, and another with a known-good lens of the same model. Framing should be as identical as possible—to do this, I adjust the position of the test target with micrometers, as no two objectives have exactly the same framing. But no matter how careful the tester is, framing will still be off a bit, as no two objectives have exactly the same magnification. Stacking is important in such tests, for minimizing focus errors and differences in field flatness, which isn’t very important for those of us who routinely focus stack.
Once shot and processed with PMax in Zerene Stacker, I bring these image stacks into a single Photoshop file, with each stack in its own layer. Then flash between layers to compare—a very sensitive test. This observation should include scrutiny at 200 percent, 400 percent, and sometimes more. This scrutiny should be repeated for image center and all four corners.
Having done this many times, I can say that no two microscope objectives render exactly alike, when viewed at this level of pixel-peeping. Among good objectives, differences exist in the balance of center resolution vs. edge resolution; chromatic aberration; contrast; etc. If doing this sort of comparison repeatedly, one gets a feel for acceptable differences of expression among good specimens of a lens. This is very distinct from image faults imparted by a bad lens specimen. A bad lens usually seems a huge qualitative jump below a good one of any flavor.
So Crystalline, in answer to your questions:
While I don’t know how the sellers claim access to "new" lenses, I'll strongly assert that it is not safe to buy them without provision for testing and a return privilege if such tests indicate a bad lens.crystalline wrote:I echo the question of abpho: "There are surprisingly many "new" Mitutoyo lenses for "used" prices on EBay". Can anybody explain how this can happen (how the seller could get the lens new at such a low price)? The lenses seem perfectly new and have all their papers. In addition the comments from previous buyers are excellent. Is it safe to buy?
"Seeming perfectly new" means nothing, and papers mean nothing. I recently tested a lens that seemed new, but was an optical disaster. So no, not safe to buy, unless you have the capability to test and return if needed.
A recent lens that horribly failed testing was a Mitutoyo 7.5x. This was purchased by, and tested on behalf of, ChrisR. It came from a reputable seller who had sold two other 7.5x Mitties to forum members in Spain, who report good results from their specimens. Still, the lens that I tested was a disaster.crystalline wrote:In addition the comments from previous buyers are excellent. Is it safe to buy?
So I’d say that it is not safe to buy without testing and potential return, even if a seller has solid feedback.
I don’t recall anyone’s demonstrating that Edmund Optics is the “most secure” company from which to purchase Mitutoyo objectives. I’ve purchased many items from Edmund Optics, and quite like working with them—I have an account there, and have found their engineers very good to work with. This said, Thorlabs is also an excellent vendor; I also have an account with them, and have gotten solid help from their engineers. I would buy with confidence from either company. Likewise, I find it hard to believe that purchasing direct from Mitutoyo would be risky.crystalline wrote:If we do have the budget for a new lens, many fellows here suggest Edmund Optics as the most secure place to buy a Mitutoyo. However, the price is huge (higher than in Mitutoyo themselves!) and customs for Europe will make the price even higher. Can I 100% trust the Mitutoyo's network in Europe? ThorLabs . . .?
Crystalline, I’ll also PM you with a couple of “known good” Mitutoyo 10x objectives from a European source.
Cheers,
--Chris S.
I bought my first Mitty (10x) via Ebay. Until it arrived, I worried quite a lot about it's condition because I too had nothing to compare it with. As it happened, the image quality was stunning and I can't believe it is in any way defective. It turned out it was sold by a forum member too - so even more confident about that one. You've seen results posted here, I'm 100% sure it's a goodun.
But then I wanted more Mitties (a common affliction?). Having "got lucky" with the first one, I didn't fancy my chances of being so lucky with others and nor did I want to wait years for them to turn up for sale. So in the end I bought direct from Mitutoyo in the UK (much cheaper than Edmund). Yes, it was a *lot* of money (the 50x being particularly eye-watering) but I've got pristine new lenses and no worries about their performance (or I could have exchanged them if I did have). Resale value will be better too as they have good provenance - though I can't imagine any credible scenario where I *would* sell them. Perhaps if newer versions with higher NA came out, but even then...
So while this is an expensive way to get a set of Mitties, I am content with my decision as I have no "lingering doubts" about their quality (which I would certainly have had with random second-hand ones).
Cheers
But then I wanted more Mitties (a common affliction?). Having "got lucky" with the first one, I didn't fancy my chances of being so lucky with others and nor did I want to wait years for them to turn up for sale. So in the end I bought direct from Mitutoyo in the UK (much cheaper than Edmund). Yes, it was a *lot* of money (the 50x being particularly eye-watering) but I've got pristine new lenses and no worries about their performance (or I could have exchanged them if I did have). Resale value will be better too as they have good provenance - though I can't imagine any credible scenario where I *would* sell them. Perhaps if newer versions with higher NA came out, but even then...
So while this is an expensive way to get a set of Mitties, I am content with my decision as I have no "lingering doubts" about their quality (which I would certainly have had with random second-hand ones).
Cheers
Now that he's "outed" himself I'm happy to confirm that Chris Slaybaugh has tested several Mitties for me.
The recent 7.5x was a bad one.
If I had taken delivery of it in the UK, I would have not been able to recover about 25% in import costs and tax. As it was, I had to fight with the seller to pay for return shipping to China, which had to be insured. China also has import tariffs, so the seller has to argue at his end, about paying a lot of duty on a lens which is declared as expensive, but worth about nothing.
What we did, was put other labels on the package to the effect that it was worth nothing, and only being returned for a refund.
In this case I'd asked the seller to confirm that the lens performed correctly, so he didn't have the chance to say, as others have done, "It''s a used lens, if you want a new one you have to pay several times more".
I've also had them say "it was fine when it was sent, you must have damaged it".
Ebay sellers have been known to me, to play games with collection of returned items. They know they'll have to pay duties for something worthless, AND they have a chance to avoid ebay refunding their money to the buyer.
I need to emphasize that lens testing takes a LOT OF WORK. You need a stable reference, cleaning of the lens (they're frequently filthy) and a sound knowledge and experience of what to expect. Sometimes, Expanded Live View will show a bad lens quickly, but you won't be able to tell the last 20% or so. Cameras vary on that ability, my Nikons are better than my Canons.
I recently looked at five "identical" Nikon objectives.
One was scratched. Performance was "ok". (I was refunded).
Of the other four, one was poor, and the others pretty close.
There are often small variations in CA, or corner performance. I suspect that's true with new objectives, I've not bought many of those..
With many objectives, I've found, it's just about impossible to tell if the thing is resolving as a new one should, without comparisons. I don't have micron-scale test cards.
If I take an objective which should resolve, say 0.8µm, then multuply by the magnification, then compare with my sensor pixels size, allowing a little for an AA filter, I usually think it should do better. Then I query my methods and care. Is it a little vibration, is the tube lens performing properly, did I focus it correctly, have I lit it well enough for the NA, etc?
I recently returned a 100x NA 0.8, though the vendor honestly feels it's fine. Maybe it's as good as that model gets. He resold it. I could beat it with a NA 0.6.
These aren't biologicals, so there's no coverslip to worry about - usually those aren't quite the right thickness.
Chris S and I have debated whether it might be a viable money-earner, to provide a lens-testing service. It wouldn't, for me. I'm not set up for it.
The other side of the coin - I'm QUITE sure that many of us use lenses of all types which aren't as good as they could be, mostly in blissful ignorance. How much does it matter??
Unless you have $1500 or so to waste, don't buy these:
Defective Mitutoyo 100x/0.70 Model 378-806-2, SN B 36009198
Defective Mitutoyo 7.5x/0.21 serial number is R33036811.
Edit - It may be that this 7.5x was sold quickly when relisted by a third Chinese seller, 19th December 2017, with the serial number slightly fuzzied in the ebay photo, so the last digits read 311. The paint chip on the front ring looks familiar.
The recent 7.5x was a bad one.
If I had taken delivery of it in the UK, I would have not been able to recover about 25% in import costs and tax. As it was, I had to fight with the seller to pay for return shipping to China, which had to be insured. China also has import tariffs, so the seller has to argue at his end, about paying a lot of duty on a lens which is declared as expensive, but worth about nothing.
What we did, was put other labels on the package to the effect that it was worth nothing, and only being returned for a refund.
In this case I'd asked the seller to confirm that the lens performed correctly, so he didn't have the chance to say, as others have done, "It''s a used lens, if you want a new one you have to pay several times more".
I've also had them say "it was fine when it was sent, you must have damaged it".
Ebay sellers have been known to me, to play games with collection of returned items. They know they'll have to pay duties for something worthless, AND they have a chance to avoid ebay refunding their money to the buyer.
I need to emphasize that lens testing takes a LOT OF WORK. You need a stable reference, cleaning of the lens (they're frequently filthy) and a sound knowledge and experience of what to expect. Sometimes, Expanded Live View will show a bad lens quickly, but you won't be able to tell the last 20% or so. Cameras vary on that ability, my Nikons are better than my Canons.
I recently looked at five "identical" Nikon objectives.
One was scratched. Performance was "ok". (I was refunded).
Of the other four, one was poor, and the others pretty close.
There are often small variations in CA, or corner performance. I suspect that's true with new objectives, I've not bought many of those..
With many objectives, I've found, it's just about impossible to tell if the thing is resolving as a new one should, without comparisons. I don't have micron-scale test cards.
If I take an objective which should resolve, say 0.8µm, then multuply by the magnification, then compare with my sensor pixels size, allowing a little for an AA filter, I usually think it should do better. Then I query my methods and care. Is it a little vibration, is the tube lens performing properly, did I focus it correctly, have I lit it well enough for the NA, etc?
I recently returned a 100x NA 0.8, though the vendor honestly feels it's fine. Maybe it's as good as that model gets. He resold it. I could beat it with a NA 0.6.
These aren't biologicals, so there's no coverslip to worry about - usually those aren't quite the right thickness.
Chris S and I have debated whether it might be a viable money-earner, to provide a lens-testing service. It wouldn't, for me. I'm not set up for it.
The other side of the coin - I'm QUITE sure that many of us use lenses of all types which aren't as good as they could be, mostly in blissful ignorance. How much does it matter??
Unless you have $1500 or so to waste, don't buy these:
Defective Mitutoyo 100x/0.70 Model 378-806-2, SN B 36009198
Defective Mitutoyo 7.5x/0.21 serial number is R33036811.
Edit - It may be that this 7.5x was sold quickly when relisted by a third Chinese seller, 19th December 2017, with the serial number slightly fuzzied in the ebay photo, so the last digits read 311. The paint chip on the front ring looks familiar.
Last edited by ChrisR on Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chris R
-
crystalline
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:50 pm
Dear Chris S and R and Beatsy,
Thank you all very much for the detailed messages and for transferring all your precious experience and advice to the forum.
Following what you wrote, in my case (and that of all beginners) I think there are three options for buying a Mitutoyo. Make the purchase from:
1) the Mitutoyo network
2) one of the renown optic companies like those mentioned in the original message
3) from a member of this forum that we can trust and ideally has the knowledge and good will to test the lens.
Anything else has each own (likely big) risks.
Just in case it would be useful, I had contacted various dealers of the Mitutoyo network in Europe before my message and they all have a common price. In addition several among them (but not all) will forward your request to a Mitutoyo dealer of your country.
In addition, they do not seem to have a stock, so the lens is coming from Japan to Germany and then goes to any other country. In my case, they let me know that they are testing the lens before leaving Japan and after its arrival to each country. I just transmit the info I got, but of course I cannot guarantee about it.
Today I asked my country's dealer of Mitutoyo how is it possible that we find in the market "new" items at the price of used. The answer was that they really do not know regarding lenses, but regarding other instruments (including calipers and even microscopes!) they have found fake Mitutoyos (with all the appearance, logos, letters etc of Mitutoyo) in the market, and Mitutoyo has published a relevant leaflet.
Thanks once more and hope this helps.
Thank you all very much for the detailed messages and for transferring all your precious experience and advice to the forum.
Following what you wrote, in my case (and that of all beginners) I think there are three options for buying a Mitutoyo. Make the purchase from:
1) the Mitutoyo network
2) one of the renown optic companies like those mentioned in the original message
3) from a member of this forum that we can trust and ideally has the knowledge and good will to test the lens.
Anything else has each own (likely big) risks.
Just in case it would be useful, I had contacted various dealers of the Mitutoyo network in Europe before my message and they all have a common price. In addition several among them (but not all) will forward your request to a Mitutoyo dealer of your country.
In addition, they do not seem to have a stock, so the lens is coming from Japan to Germany and then goes to any other country. In my case, they let me know that they are testing the lens before leaving Japan and after its arrival to each country. I just transmit the info I got, but of course I cannot guarantee about it.
Today I asked my country's dealer of Mitutoyo how is it possible that we find in the market "new" items at the price of used. The answer was that they really do not know regarding lenses, but regarding other instruments (including calipers and even microscopes!) they have found fake Mitutoyos (with all the appearance, logos, letters etc of Mitutoyo) in the market, and Mitutoyo has published a relevant leaflet.
Thanks once more and hope this helps.
There's one other method -
Buy a new or known good Nikon 10x 0.25, there are several options, all much cheaper than a Mitutoyo. .
Then wait until a Me-to-you-yo-yo comes along, with Return options. Then you have something to USE, and something to compare with.
It wasn't until I got a Nikon 0.25 (the gold one) that I was sure I had dud Mitutoyos.
The first one I bought isn't tooo bad, two later ones went back quickly, as did the next 2 which Chris S looked at.
That may be unusual.
Buy a new or known good Nikon 10x 0.25, there are several options, all much cheaper than a Mitutoyo. .
Then wait until a Me-to-you-yo-yo comes along, with Return options. Then you have something to USE, and something to compare with.
It wasn't until I got a Nikon 0.25 (the gold one) that I was sure I had dud Mitutoyos.
The first one I bought isn't tooo bad, two later ones went back quickly, as did the next 2 which Chris S looked at.
That may be unusual.
Chris R
-
benjamind2014
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:07 am
I think you've been lucky, Nathan. Having tested scores of second-hand objectives, I've found bad objectives to comprise 10-20 percent of all lenses tested (the percentage has increased of late--not sure if this is random variation, or if something like a time-on-market survival bias exists, where good specimens tend to be kept, while bad ones tend to be passed on).
Crystalline, there is a fourth option: Have another forum member test the lens for you. I've done this as a favor for quite a few forum members. As ChrisR said, this takes time. So I can't always do it (check with me first to see if there is room in my schedule). Nor can I check a limitless number of lenses. But I am set up to do such testing, and am happy to help when and to the degree my schedule permits.
In such cases, forum members typically have the eBay seller ship the lens directly to me (some have me added in PayPal as a second official address, or if this is not possible, I've occasionally purchased the lens on behalf of the real buyer, and let him reimburse me. Nice people at our forum--no one has ever let me down on reimbursement.)
I test the lens against one of my own, upload comparative results to Dropbox, and send the lens' owner a download link. I usually write my own opinion in a second email, and suggest that the lens owner not read my thoughts until he has formulated his own, to avoid creating bias. Then, at the lens owner's choosing, I either send him the lens, or return it on his behalf. (Forum members have invariably reimbursed me for these shipping costs--again, what nice people we are!
)
The part about not creating bias is often important, as individual perception definitely counts. For example, one person's perception may be highly intolerant of chromatic aberration, but more tolerant of slightly-reduced resolution (a real-life trade-off--and there are others).
This also avoids the power of suggestion--a strong influence for most people, though likely less so for many members of this forum, who tend to be strong on drawing unbiased conclusions from empirical data.
Cheers,
--Chris S.
Crystalline, there is a fourth option: Have another forum member test the lens for you. I've done this as a favor for quite a few forum members. As ChrisR said, this takes time. So I can't always do it (check with me first to see if there is room in my schedule). Nor can I check a limitless number of lenses. But I am set up to do such testing, and am happy to help when and to the degree my schedule permits.
In such cases, forum members typically have the eBay seller ship the lens directly to me (some have me added in PayPal as a second official address, or if this is not possible, I've occasionally purchased the lens on behalf of the real buyer, and let him reimburse me. Nice people at our forum--no one has ever let me down on reimbursement.)
I test the lens against one of my own, upload comparative results to Dropbox, and send the lens' owner a download link. I usually write my own opinion in a second email, and suggest that the lens owner not read my thoughts until he has formulated his own, to avoid creating bias. Then, at the lens owner's choosing, I either send him the lens, or return it on his behalf. (Forum members have invariably reimbursed me for these shipping costs--again, what nice people we are!
)The part about not creating bias is often important, as individual perception definitely counts. For example, one person's perception may be highly intolerant of chromatic aberration, but more tolerant of slightly-reduced resolution (a real-life trade-off--and there are others).
This also avoids the power of suggestion--a strong influence for most people, though likely less so for many members of this forum, who tend to be strong on drawing unbiased conclusions from empirical data.
Cheers,
--Chris S.
So after reading alot about buying used mitutoyo:s it seems it might not be worth the risk.. Escpecially since i dont have a collection of ojectives to compare with.
New price is pretty steep thought with 25%VAT (EU) and all.
Might have to think about this a few weeks.
As i live in Europe i am trying to find a good source.
What i found was Thorlabs in Germany. I have gathered they are a big company so should be good to buy from ? Or is there some better/cheaper source in EU ?
https://www.thorlabs.de/newgrouppage9.c ... up_id=9922
New price is pretty steep thought with 25%VAT (EU) and all.
Might have to think about this a few weeks.
As i live in Europe i am trying to find a good source.
What i found was Thorlabs in Germany. I have gathered they are a big company so should be good to buy from ? Or is there some better/cheaper source in EU ?
https://www.thorlabs.de/newgrouppage9.c ... up_id=9922
I found going direct to Mitutoyo in the UK was about 20% cheaper than Thorlabs and equivalents. When one objective I ordered wasn't in stock, Mitutoyo had it shipped from Germany (only took a week extra). So I suggest it would be worth comparing prices with http://www.mitutoyo.demicroman wrote:What i found was Thorlabs in Germany. I have gathered they are a big company so should be good to buy from ? Or is there some better/cheaper source in EU ?
Thanks. Will be checking that out.Beatsy wrote:I found going direct to Mitutoyo in the UK was about 20% cheaper than Thorlabs and equivalents. When one objective I ordered wasn't in stock, Mitutoyo had it shipped from Germany (only took a week extra). So I suggest it would be worth comparing prices with http://www.mitutoyo.demicroman wrote:What i found was Thorlabs in Germany. I have gathered they are a big company so should be good to buy from ? Or is there some better/cheaper source in EU ?